BNP - no publicity is bad publicity
Discussion
I really hope the mainstream media stop allowing Nick Griffin such mainstream viewing, even if it is him having meetings in pubs or getting pelted with eggs.
I think it is really serving his party massively to have such continued high profile coverage and discussion.
The media need to just ignore him and his thugs as much as possible IMO.
The irony of me starting a thread to discuss this isn't lost by the way!
Edited for formatting
I think it is really serving his party massively to have such continued high profile coverage and discussion.
The media need to just ignore him and his thugs as much as possible IMO.
The irony of me starting a thread to discuss this isn't lost by the way!
Edited for formatting
Edited by Mannginger on Thursday 11th June 10:20
There is also the old notion of the behavior and actions of an observer being changed merely by the act of observing his subjects.
In the same way by Griffon and co being forced to contend with greater scrutiny and media spotlight on them, so they will find themselves changing and conforming more. Its very hard to continue with the more contentious elements of your party thoughts AND to expand your support base at the same time, unless the electorate you are tapping into change themselves.
In this respect then the BNP could be percieved to be that of a mirror, held up to reflect the British electorate and that is why Labour in particular are so scared of the BNP. It is very little to do with racism, its to do with perceptions of power. Labour know that the majority BNP vote is being taken from their natural supporter...white working class, lower incomes, so is eroding their voting base anyway. As a mirror though, it could also be thought to be showing a changing attitude in that traditional Labour voting base, away from Labour "values" and towards something else. That will worry the hell out of any traditional politicial party as they rely on their natural base to give them the core of their vote, so they can concentrate on fighting the floating voter. Suddenly realising that they now have a fight for a proportion of their traditional base means...and this is being reflected in the current infighting of the Labour party...they will have to divide between being a centre orientated party than can more easily attract the floating voter, or tying up the full traditional party support.
The BNP have played a very canny game. They know the Labour party traditional support is currently looking with distrust and disgust at their party. They know these people are still traditional left leaning though, they still want and need someone to support. They know they are local orientated, kith n kin, community minded, help and trust those they know, dont like change that much and look to their own before strangers. Perfect material for BNP votes with a subtle changing of message. They have also looked at the right wing and realised the voting pool is already split between the Tories and UKIP, so there is no space for them there, this is why they have gone with the left wing approach.
To continue this policy though, the BNP will *have* to continually lower the racist aspect of their party. They wont expand their support whilst they still have that so close to the surface, the population at large wont tolerate it, so they wont expand their support. If they tone it down though and the Labour party dont realise what is going on and counter the threat, then I can see the BNP being more successful in future. The more they counter the threat though, the more they leave the centre for the Tories.
In the same way by Griffon and co being forced to contend with greater scrutiny and media spotlight on them, so they will find themselves changing and conforming more. Its very hard to continue with the more contentious elements of your party thoughts AND to expand your support base at the same time, unless the electorate you are tapping into change themselves.
In this respect then the BNP could be percieved to be that of a mirror, held up to reflect the British electorate and that is why Labour in particular are so scared of the BNP. It is very little to do with racism, its to do with perceptions of power. Labour know that the majority BNP vote is being taken from their natural supporter...white working class, lower incomes, so is eroding their voting base anyway. As a mirror though, it could also be thought to be showing a changing attitude in that traditional Labour voting base, away from Labour "values" and towards something else. That will worry the hell out of any traditional politicial party as they rely on their natural base to give them the core of their vote, so they can concentrate on fighting the floating voter. Suddenly realising that they now have a fight for a proportion of their traditional base means...and this is being reflected in the current infighting of the Labour party...they will have to divide between being a centre orientated party than can more easily attract the floating voter, or tying up the full traditional party support.
The BNP have played a very canny game. They know the Labour party traditional support is currently looking with distrust and disgust at their party. They know these people are still traditional left leaning though, they still want and need someone to support. They know they are local orientated, kith n kin, community minded, help and trust those they know, dont like change that much and look to their own before strangers. Perfect material for BNP votes with a subtle changing of message. They have also looked at the right wing and realised the voting pool is already split between the Tories and UKIP, so there is no space for them there, this is why they have gone with the left wing approach.
To continue this policy though, the BNP will *have* to continually lower the racist aspect of their party. They wont expand their support whilst they still have that so close to the surface, the population at large wont tolerate it, so they wont expand their support. If they tone it down though and the Labour party dont realise what is going on and counter the threat, then I can see the BNP being more successful in future. The more they counter the threat though, the more they leave the centre for the Tories.
Fidgits said:
i'm sorry? Are you saying racism is fully acceptable as long as it is arrived at through a democratic process????????????
I put freedom of speech above all other rights.You have to take the rough with the smooth.
The whole point of democracy is that the people decide everything. If they choose to vote/be BNP, that's up to them.
I abhor what the BNP have to say, yet I 100% support their right to speak.
One cannot ignore the will of the people; it is this that has facilitated the rise of the BNP anyhoo.
Martial Arts Man said:
Fidgits said:
i'm sorry? Are you saying racism is fully acceptable as long as it is arrived at through a democratic process????????????
I put freedom of speech above all other rights.You have to take the rough with the smooth.
The whole point of democracy is that the people decide everything. If they choose to vote/be BNP, that's up to them.
I abhor what the BNP have to say, yet I 100% support their right to speak.
One cannot ignore the will of the people; it is this that has facilitated the rise of the BNP anyhoo.
Fidgits said:
Martial Arts Man said:
Fidgits said:
i'm sorry? Are you saying racism is fully acceptable as long as it is arrived at through a democratic process????????????
I put freedom of speech above all other rights.You have to take the rough with the smooth.
The whole point of democracy is that the people decide everything. If they choose to vote/be BNP, that's up to them.
I abhor what the BNP have to say, yet I 100% support their right to speak.
One cannot ignore the will of the people; it is this that has facilitated the rise of the BNP anyhoo.
well, hats off to you for standing by your beliefs...
I personally think a line has to be drawn somewhere... otherwise where will we end up? the paedophilia is good party?
While i realise its a contenuous issue - i think at a certain point you have to say something is unacceptable - however, as you rightly say, in politics it should be the electorate that do that...
Though DJC did have some very good points about how actually voting them into power means they actually have to adapt to be acceptable...
but anyway..
I personally think a line has to be drawn somewhere... otherwise where will we end up? the paedophilia is good party?
While i realise its a contenuous issue - i think at a certain point you have to say something is unacceptable - however, as you rightly say, in politics it should be the electorate that do that...
Though DJC did have some very good points about how actually voting them into power means they actually have to adapt to be acceptable...
but anyway..
As DJC said, the best thing that can happen to the BNP is for it to become legit and get absorbed into the system, the more distasteful aspects will, if they are to survive, melt away and the threat they appear to hold will be no more. NG looks very pleased with himself at the moment but his success will spell the end of the Facist BNP as we know it. I imagine an offshoot will eventually appear under the guise of the Real BNP or something.
Martial Arts Man said:
Fidgits said:
i'm sorry? Are you saying racism is fully acceptable as long as it is arrived at through a democratic process????????????
I put freedom of speech above all other rights.You have to take the rough with the smooth.
The whole point of democracy is that the people decide everything. If they choose to vote/be BNP, that's up to them.
I abhor what the BNP have to say, yet I 100% support their right to speak.
Frankly, letting the man speak and then asking a couple of probing questions soon demonstrates the core values. The electorate can then make their decision.
Simply banning them drives them underground and adds mystique.
Fidgits said:
while i accept your point of view - do you also accept that Abu Hamza had a right to free speech, even though it was inciting racial hatred?
Yes, absolutely. And if you disagree with what he has to say (and I think we all probably should), then you are as free to do so.The Abu Hamza thing was incredibly badly handled. There were 2 and only approaches that should have been taken:
A) Simply deport the man quickly and quietly.
B) Dont do a thing about him except expose him to the full glare of media and public scrutiny. His every speech covered, his every platform, his every public action covered. You *force* the public by sheer weight of publicity to acknowledge the man and what he says, you dont allow ignorance or indifference in the public, so he isnt only heard by the minority, but majority as well.
You would soon find the weight of public opinion and public reactions to him become very nagative and force him to change what he says, how he says and when he says it. You would also cause his supporters to revalidate themselves and how they wish to be percieved by everyone else.
Ignorance and indifference are the best weapons any minority has in to grow their presence against a complacent majority.
A) Simply deport the man quickly and quietly.
B) Dont do a thing about him except expose him to the full glare of media and public scrutiny. His every speech covered, his every platform, his every public action covered. You *force* the public by sheer weight of publicity to acknowledge the man and what he says, you dont allow ignorance or indifference in the public, so he isnt only heard by the minority, but majority as well.
You would soon find the weight of public opinion and public reactions to him become very nagative and force him to change what he says, how he says and when he says it. You would also cause his supporters to revalidate themselves and how they wish to be percieved by everyone else.
Ignorance and indifference are the best weapons any minority has in to grow their presence against a complacent majority.
Fidgits said:
well, hats off to you for standing by your beliefs...
I personally think a line has to be drawn somewhere... otherwise where will we end up? the paedophilia is good party?
While i realise its a contenuous issue - i think at a certain point you have to say something is unacceptable - however, as you rightly say, in politics it should be the electorate that do that...
but anyway..
Only thing is, Paedophilia is not really a free speech issue. Talking about it is not a problem. It's the doing that counts.I personally think a line has to be drawn somewhere... otherwise where will we end up? the paedophilia is good party?
While i realise its a contenuous issue - i think at a certain point you have to say something is unacceptable - however, as you rightly say, in politics it should be the electorate that do that...
but anyway..
Actions should be legislated against, speech should not.
Who is to decide what is and isn't acceptable? It is this point that has led to the BNP's mainstream appeal.
haworthlloyd1 said:
i'd have to disagree. I think they have been voted for by the people of great britain and they should be allowed their say the same as any other party.
its amazing how many people just think they shouldn't be allowed to have their say because they don't believe in their believes.
well i f
king hate labour but I understand that some others don't so they should be allowed their say!!
Well said....its amazing how many people just think they shouldn't be allowed to have their say because they don't believe in their believes.
well i f
king hate labour but I understand that some others don't so they should be allowed their say!!Allowing them to have their say is a good idea. It effectively gives them enough rope to hang themselves...
iain dale said:
One reason perfectly decent, non racist people, feel able to vote for the BNP is that they are very proficient in hiding their racist agenda. The policy of the media of no platforming them and the failure of all the mainstream parties to engage them in debate and show them up for what they are has, in large part, led to them getting an easy ride and enabled them to portray themselves as hard done by martyrs.
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