Who cares about MP's expenses!
Discussion
Don't get me wrong, some of them/ all of them are P*ss taking muppets.
But if a system is there, every single one of them and most people will exploit the system to it's maximum extent.
But the problem is, while this is going on, we are missing the real issues, when are the banks going to start leading? the banks that we have all paid for(and our children will continue to pay for)
The money the MP's have claimed may be offensive, but it is completely irrelevant when looking at the bigger picture, billions have been lent to the banks, insurance, policies have been put in place, so they can lend and cover their toxic assessts, small business loans have been set up and none of it is filtering through.
Can we please get back to the bigger issue and stop giving that F*cking (see you next Tuesday) Brown a soap box to stand on and try and to resurrect his disastrous political career, a career that has never included any form of working outside of politics.
Who cares about "duck houses", "bedroom extensions", "moat cleaning" and even Sir Fred's pension. What I want is a banking system that doesn't reduce my overdraft everytime I pay money in and have to pay tax on , money I've worked my nuts off for. A banking system that tells my Nan, "it's 10 working days" for a £500 cheque to clear.
S*d the expenses, it's a smoke screen to cover the real issues. The issues that affect us all.
But if a system is there, every single one of them and most people will exploit the system to it's maximum extent.
But the problem is, while this is going on, we are missing the real issues, when are the banks going to start leading? the banks that we have all paid for(and our children will continue to pay for)
The money the MP's have claimed may be offensive, but it is completely irrelevant when looking at the bigger picture, billions have been lent to the banks, insurance, policies have been put in place, so they can lend and cover their toxic assessts, small business loans have been set up and none of it is filtering through.
Can we please get back to the bigger issue and stop giving that F*cking (see you next Tuesday) Brown a soap box to stand on and try and to resurrect his disastrous political career, a career that has never included any form of working outside of politics.
Who cares about "duck houses", "bedroom extensions", "moat cleaning" and even Sir Fred's pension. What I want is a banking system that doesn't reduce my overdraft everytime I pay money in and have to pay tax on , money I've worked my nuts off for. A banking system that tells my Nan, "it's 10 working days" for a £500 cheque to clear.
S*d the expenses, it's a smoke screen to cover the real issues. The issues that affect us all.
If they can't be trusted to run an expense account, how on earth can they be trusted to run a national financial system?
There's no confidence in them whatsoever. The problem isn't the expenses, it's the dorks who're running the show who've been caught with their hands in the cookie jar.
There's no confidence in them whatsoever. The problem isn't the expenses, it's the dorks who're running the show who've been caught with their hands in the cookie jar.
Dkta2989 said:
But if a system is there, every single one of them and most people will exploit the system to it's maximum extent.
They put the system in. They decided on a lax expenses system. They exploited it.They also decided on the banking system that fooked the UK over good n proper.
There does seem to be some conection & theme there...
Its Party Members benefitting from a superior lifestyle from the rest of the citizenry aka 1984, whilst giving the outward impression of low salaries to appease us.
They are above the law and can run wild without intereference from Customs and Revenue.
Having said that, I think its a great thing that this is exposed as we may be about to see some serious political change.
They are above the law and can run wild without intereference from Customs and Revenue.
Having said that, I think its a great thing that this is exposed as we may be about to see some serious political change.
If they fiddle and steal from us then how can we trust them to do what's right when they are dealing with bigger issues ? If their personal morals are down in the gutter, no better than a benefit cheat or pikey, they can't be trusted.
I want honest, deacent hard working people as MP's, not thieving, stealing, cheating deceitful pigs.
I want honest, deacent hard working people as MP's, not thieving, stealing, cheating deceitful pigs.
Politicians are in a unique position. We put them in their jobs and more or less abrogate to them the power to run the country on our behalf - ostensibly in the way we want.
Therefore, there is an onus on them to behave and operate in an honest and transparent manner.
The expenses scandal is not important because of the sums involved, which, in the big scheme of things are not that great.
What it has exposed is their atitude to setting rules for themselves (which always seem to be beneficial to them and very generous) compared to the rules THEY set for everyone else - which increasingly are becoming more onerous and laced with all sorts of fines, penalties and other severe legal consequences if not adhered to.
It has also exposed massive flaws in how democracy is operated in the UK, with an 18th century voting system and MPs who don't need to be present in the house when important topics are being voted on.
So, all in all, The Telegraph has provided a great service to the nation.
Therefore, there is an onus on them to behave and operate in an honest and transparent manner.
The expenses scandal is not important because of the sums involved, which, in the big scheme of things are not that great.
What it has exposed is their atitude to setting rules for themselves (which always seem to be beneficial to them and very generous) compared to the rules THEY set for everyone else - which increasingly are becoming more onerous and laced with all sorts of fines, penalties and other severe legal consequences if not adhered to.
It has also exposed massive flaws in how democracy is operated in the UK, with an 18th century voting system and MPs who don't need to be present in the house when important topics are being voted on.
So, all in all, The Telegraph has provided a great service to the nation.
There are serious issues facing this country, but we need straight, serious people to deal with them, not the crooks we have at the moment. I guess it's precisely because we have crooks that the nation is in such a state.
Stephen Fry was quite right when he said "I fiddle my expenses and you fiddle your expenses and everyone fiddles their expenses" etc. But i don't try and fiddle tens of thousands of pounds for mortgages i simply haven't got, christ i wouldn't be able to sleep at night, not least 'cos i'd feel sure i was going to be caught.
It speaks volumes that they felt that they had created a system with which they wouldn't be caught.
Nope, we can't even begin to sort the serious stuff out until we've got some proper people in Westminster.
Stephen Fry was quite right when he said "I fiddle my expenses and you fiddle your expenses and everyone fiddles their expenses" etc. But i don't try and fiddle tens of thousands of pounds for mortgages i simply haven't got, christ i wouldn't be able to sleep at night, not least 'cos i'd feel sure i was going to be caught.
It speaks volumes that they felt that they had created a system with which they wouldn't be caught.
Nope, we can't even begin to sort the serious stuff out until we've got some proper people in Westminster.
I care. Appologising and paying the money back (whilst protesting they did 'nothing wrong') is just NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
They complain they aren't paid enough as MP's, yet most have other incomes or substantial family fortunes to fall back on. They may not have choosen an MPs life in order to get rich, but they have immorrally abused the system in order to live well rewarded lives.
Any of us doing similar in our jobs would be dissmissed at the earliest possible oppertunity. Furthermore, we'd probably end up with Police Records that would stop us getting proper jobs again. There absolutly MUST not be one rule for them and one rule for us.
And as for 'most of us' abusing our own expenses system I can guarantee you the exact opposite is true. Most people are honest and only want back what is right. Even getting back what your properly entitled to in most companies these days is a real ball ache. I could never consider getting what they've had handed to them.
Clear them all out. Most sit in safe seats and are veritually impossible to sack even in a general election. You have certain Tories for instance having their whole lives in Parliment basically with a job for life or until they get caught out in some scandal, just becasue their in a safe seat that will never go to Labour. Same with Labour MPs ensconced in Labour heartland. Thats not a democracy. Remember the utter shock when Labour had a landslide after Majors government? People who thought they were in Westminster for the rest of their lives suddenly out on the street. It wont happen again.
If you own a house with a moat my guess is you already have more than enough money to not have to claim for every thing else. Just because a system is open to abuse doesnt mean to say its your right to abuse it.
They complain they aren't paid enough as MP's, yet most have other incomes or substantial family fortunes to fall back on. They may not have choosen an MPs life in order to get rich, but they have immorrally abused the system in order to live well rewarded lives.
Any of us doing similar in our jobs would be dissmissed at the earliest possible oppertunity. Furthermore, we'd probably end up with Police Records that would stop us getting proper jobs again. There absolutly MUST not be one rule for them and one rule for us.
And as for 'most of us' abusing our own expenses system I can guarantee you the exact opposite is true. Most people are honest and only want back what is right. Even getting back what your properly entitled to in most companies these days is a real ball ache. I could never consider getting what they've had handed to them.
Clear them all out. Most sit in safe seats and are veritually impossible to sack even in a general election. You have certain Tories for instance having their whole lives in Parliment basically with a job for life or until they get caught out in some scandal, just becasue their in a safe seat that will never go to Labour. Same with Labour MPs ensconced in Labour heartland. Thats not a democracy. Remember the utter shock when Labour had a landslide after Majors government? People who thought they were in Westminster for the rest of their lives suddenly out on the street. It wont happen again.
If you own a house with a moat my guess is you already have more than enough money to not have to claim for every thing else. Just because a system is open to abuse doesnt mean to say its your right to abuse it.
Unfortunately, from a legal point of view, most of the expense and allowance claims that have been exposed have not been wrong. Every MP who has been caught out can rightfully claim that they were acting within the rules. Indeed, some of them were conscientious enough to check certain claims with the Fees Committee to get a ruling on whether these claims was valid. Nine times out ten it seems that the Fees Committee approved these claims.
So far, it only looks like a handfull actually claimed outside the rules and are potentially guilty of fraud. These are the cases which have been sent to the police. It will be interesting to see how far the police take these allegations.
On the other hand, what has been exposed is a massive moral bankruptcy existing at the heart of our political system and that is more worrying than whether rules were broken or not.
The other worrying aspect is the complete inability of many (not all) of the MPs who have been exposed to even UNDERSTAND why the public might think that what they were doing was not OK. After three weeks, the penny is finally beginning to drop with them but I think many of them are in a kind of stste of shock.
Many of the comments they are making are eerilly similar to the type of responses that Concentration Camp Commandants uttered when they were interrogated after WW2. These individuals had similar mind sets -
i) everybody in our position is doing it
ii) we are obeying the law of the land
iii) it is for the greater good
Unfortunately, "Ve vere only following ze rules" didn't wash for them - and it won't wash for MPs either.
So far, it only looks like a handfull actually claimed outside the rules and are potentially guilty of fraud. These are the cases which have been sent to the police. It will be interesting to see how far the police take these allegations.
On the other hand, what has been exposed is a massive moral bankruptcy existing at the heart of our political system and that is more worrying than whether rules were broken or not.
The other worrying aspect is the complete inability of many (not all) of the MPs who have been exposed to even UNDERSTAND why the public might think that what they were doing was not OK. After three weeks, the penny is finally beginning to drop with them but I think many of them are in a kind of stste of shock.
Many of the comments they are making are eerilly similar to the type of responses that Concentration Camp Commandants uttered when they were interrogated after WW2. These individuals had similar mind sets -
i) everybody in our position is doing it
ii) we are obeying the law of the land
iii) it is for the greater good
Unfortunately, "Ve vere only following ze rules" didn't wash for them - and it won't wash for MPs either.
Eric Mc said:
Unfortunately, from a legal point of view, most of the expense and allowance claims that have been exposed have not been wrong. Every MP who has been caught out can rightfully claim that they were acting within the rules. Indeed, some of them were conscientious enough to check certain claims with the Fees Committee to get a ruling on whether these claims was valid. Nine times out ten it seems that the Fees Committee approved these claims.
So far, it only looks like a handfull actually claimed outside the rules and are potentially guilty of fraud. These are the cases which have been sent to the police. It will be interesting to see how far the police take these allegations.
On the other hand, what has been exposed is a massive moral bankruptcy existing at the heart of our political system and that is more worrying than whether rules were broken or not.
The other worrying aspect is the complete inability of many (not all) of the MPs who have been exposed to even UNDERSTAND why the public might think that what they were doing was not OK. After three weeks, the penny is finally beginning to drop with them but I think many of them are in a kind of stste of shock.
Many of the comments they are making are eerilly similar to the type of responses that Concentration Camp Commandants uttered when they were interrogated after WW2. These individuals had similar mind sets -
i) everybody in our position is doing it
ii) we are obeying the law of the land
iii) it is for the greater good
Unfortunately, "Ve vere only following ze rules" didn't wash for them - and it won't wash for MPs either.
From what i've seen, most, if not all of the erroneous actions taken by MPs has been *outside* of the rules, not within. The fees office and the MPs have been acting outside of the rulebook and the system.So far, it only looks like a handfull actually claimed outside the rules and are potentially guilty of fraud. These are the cases which have been sent to the police. It will be interesting to see how far the police take these allegations.
On the other hand, what has been exposed is a massive moral bankruptcy existing at the heart of our political system and that is more worrying than whether rules were broken or not.
The other worrying aspect is the complete inability of many (not all) of the MPs who have been exposed to even UNDERSTAND why the public might think that what they were doing was not OK. After three weeks, the penny is finally beginning to drop with them but I think many of them are in a kind of stste of shock.
Many of the comments they are making are eerilly similar to the type of responses that Concentration Camp Commandants uttered when they were interrogated after WW2. These individuals had similar mind sets -
i) everybody in our position is doing it
ii) we are obeying the law of the land
iii) it is for the greater good
Unfortunately, "Ve vere only following ze rules" didn't wash for them - and it won't wash for MPs either.
The fees office has been acting fraudulently as well, and i don't know why the spotlight hasn't been turned on to the individuals involved.
heebeegeetee said:
Eric Mc said:
Unfortunately, from a legal point of view, most of the expense and allowance claims that have been exposed have not been wrong. Every MP who has been caught out can rightfully claim that they were acting within the rules. Indeed, some of them were conscientious enough to check certain claims with the Fees Committee to get a ruling on whether these claims was valid. Nine times out ten it seems that the Fees Committee approved these claims.
So far, it only looks like a handfull actually claimed outside the rules and are potentially guilty of fraud. These are the cases which have been sent to the police. It will be interesting to see how far the police take these allegations.
On the other hand, what has been exposed is a massive moral bankruptcy existing at the heart of our political system and that is more worrying than whether rules were broken or not.
The other worrying aspect is the complete inability of many (not all) of the MPs who have been exposed to even UNDERSTAND why the public might think that what they were doing was not OK. After three weeks, the penny is finally beginning to drop with them but I think many of them are in a kind of stste of shock.
Many of the comments they are making are eerilly similar to the type of responses that Concentration Camp Commandants uttered when they were interrogated after WW2. These individuals had similar mind sets -
i) everybody in our position is doing it
ii) we are obeying the law of the land
iii) it is for the greater good
Unfortunately, "Ve vere only following ze rules" didn't wash for them - and it won't wash for MPs either.
From what i've seen, most, if not all of the erroneous actions taken by MPs has been *outside* of the rules, not within. The fees office and the MPs have been acting outside of the rulebook and the system.So far, it only looks like a handfull actually claimed outside the rules and are potentially guilty of fraud. These are the cases which have been sent to the police. It will be interesting to see how far the police take these allegations.
On the other hand, what has been exposed is a massive moral bankruptcy existing at the heart of our political system and that is more worrying than whether rules were broken or not.
The other worrying aspect is the complete inability of many (not all) of the MPs who have been exposed to even UNDERSTAND why the public might think that what they were doing was not OK. After three weeks, the penny is finally beginning to drop with them but I think many of them are in a kind of stste of shock.
Many of the comments they are making are eerilly similar to the type of responses that Concentration Camp Commandants uttered when they were interrogated after WW2. These individuals had similar mind sets -
i) everybody in our position is doing it
ii) we are obeying the law of the land
iii) it is for the greater good
Unfortunately, "Ve vere only following ze rules" didn't wash for them - and it won't wash for MPs either.
The fees office has been acting fraudulently as well, and i don't know why the spotlight hasn't been turned on to the individuals involved.
Eric Mc said:
Have you seen the "rulebook" they use?
Not all of it, but the bits i've seen and heard read out have been problem free. One pundit (forget who now) was reading much of it out and it all seemed fine. The interviewer asked if the MP's have broken the rulebook then, and the pundit replied "No, they've absolutely smashed it to pieces".I don't think there's been anything wrong with the rules or the system as such. It's just that all the people operating within the rulebook and system, including the fees office, are crooks and liars.
The trouble is that there is very little that can be done LEGALLY against anyone who claimed within the (admittedly very wide) constraints of the rules. They are on even surer ground if they had a claim checked and authorised by the Fees Committee.
Morally, of course, the situation is very different and it is up to the voters to make their voice heard at the earliest opportunity.
Morally, of course, the situation is very different and it is up to the voters to make their voice heard at the earliest opportunity.
I agree with the OP. We all knew they were at it before the Telegraph came along to stir the pot. Compared to our Euro MP's (who do what, exactly?) the abuses of the system by our MP's is nothing, and either issue is dwarfed by the whole, you know, "Running the Country" thing which is more important that losing a couple of million to spongers in the government.
glazbagun said:
I agree with the OP. We all knew they were at it before the Telegraph came along to stir the pot. Compared to our Euro MP's (who do what, exactly?) the abuses of the system by our MP's is nothing, and either issue is dwarfed by the whole, you know, "Running the Country" thing which is more important that losing a couple of million to spongers in the government.
The scale of the "crime" is irrelevant. We either want decent standards in parliament or we don't.Dkta2989 said:
Who cares about "duck houses", "bedroom extensions", "moat cleaning" and even Sir Fred's pension. What I want is a banking system that doesn't reduce my overdraft everytime I pay money in and have to pay tax on , money I've worked my nuts off for. A banking system that tells my Nan, "it's 10 working days" for a £500 cheque to clear.
S*d the expenses, it's a smoke screen to cover the real issues. The issues that affect us all.
This 'smoke screen' as you call it has done more to bring the crisis of our inept leadership to joe publics attention than even an illegal war did, and has the potential to give our system the overhaul it has been crying out for for years. The issues that affect us all are a direct result of our MPs lack of concern for you and me in their efforts to seal their own security and futures. We will never get any of our problems resolved until the system is reviewed and these sponging parasites thrown out.
So, yes, I do care, a lot and I hope the Telegraph goes after our Local and Parish Councils next
Edited by Invisible man on Friday 29th May 12:36
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