If any of us were caught stealing at work we'd be arrested.

[BJWoods]

Alistair Darling

The chancellor..

Flips home 4 times, avoids stamp dury, etc

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1187508/...

I know it is the daily mail, but the facts of what darling (and Brown) have done are still the facts..

I am unbelieveably angry at Hypocrites Darling/Brown...

The evidence is public domain.... Do the polive need a complaint, or can they not pursue it themselves?

B

[Eric Mc]

The vast bulk of crimes committed at work are unreported. Most businesses prefer to keep things quiet (in an effort to avoid bad publicity). The worst that normally happens is that the wrongdoer loses their job and gets a bad reference.

If your MP has been on the fiddle, sack him/her. You have the power as his/her job is totally dependent on your vote.

[glazbagun]

BJWoods said:

Alistair Darling

The chancellor..

Flips home 4 times, avoids stamp dury, etc

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1187508/...

I know it is the daily mail, but the facts of what darling (and Brown) have done are still the facts..

I am unbelieveably angry at Hypocrites Darling/Brown...

The evidence is public domain.... Do the polive need a complaint, or can they not pursue it themselves?

B

What wrong doing has Brown committed regarding expenses? My understanding was that he paid his Brother for the use of his cleaner, rather than employing him directly. Not a big deal at all IMO.

[Soir]

Eric Mc said:

The vast bulk of crimes committed at work are unreported. Most businesses prefer to keep things quiet (in an effort to avoid bad publicity). The worst that normally happens is that the wrongdoer loses their job and gets a bad reference.

If your MP has been on the fiddle, sack him/her. You have the power as his/her job is totally dependent on your vote.

It's pretty much illegal to give a bad reference these days.
Few years ago, woman who was not working got offered a job depending on references - one poor reference came back and her job offer was taken away - she sued previous employer and was successful - the goverment are doing anything possible in order for ANYONE to get a job, however bad they actually are. (more recently removing date of birth to stop ageism)

I have worked with many HR divisions of major companies across the UK and standard references these days are just confirming their job title & dates of employment. Rare to give further comments on performance etc..

-Still, I totally agree with the sentiment of the posting, these MP's should be held accountable to their employers...that's the tax payer isn't it?!

Edited by Soir on Tuesday 26th May 08:48

[cs02rm0]

Soir said:

It's pretty much illegal to give a bad reference these days.
Few years ago, woman who was not working got offered a job depending on references - one poor reference came back and her job offer was taken away - she sued previous employer and was successful - the goverment are doing anything possible in order for ANYONE to get a job, however bad they actually are. (more recently removing date of birth to stop ageism)

Or a good one conversely. These days professional references are often just confirmation of the dates you worked.

[BJWoods]

glazbagun said:

BJWoods said:

Alistair Darling

The chancellor..

Flips home 4 times, avoids stamp dury, etc

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1187508/...

I know it is the daily mail, but the facts of what darling (and Brown) have done are still the facts..

I am unbelieveably angry at Hypocrites Darling/Brown...

The evidence is public domain.... Do the polive need a complaint, or can they not pursue it themselves?

B

What wrong doing has Brown committed regarding expenses? My understanding was that he paid his Brother for the use of his cleaner, rather than employing him directly. Not a big deal at all IMO.

flipping, etc

[herewego]

It doesn't seem to be a very even handed article, I mean he seems to have forgotten that the Tories are just as bad but he'd rather rant about lamb and the BNP than the Tories.

[jesusbuiltmycar]

Eric Mc said:

The vast bulk of crimes committed at work are unreported. Most businesses prefer to keep things quiet (in an effort to avoid bad publicity). The worst that normally happens is that the wrongdoer loses their job and gets a bad reference.

If your MP has been on the fiddle, sack him/her. You have the power as his/her job is totally dependent on your vote.

Unfortunately they get a golden goodbye of something like £23K when they loose their seats....

So they get rewarded for failure!

[Guybrush]

herewego said:

It doesn't seem to be a very even handed article, I mean he seems to have forgotten that the Tories are just as bad but he'd rather rant about lamb and the BNP than the Tories.

Perhaps you need to look at the list of the 20 highest claimants...

Total claims 2005-08 (excluding travel)

Liam Byrne £ 478,536 LABOUR

Joan Ryan £ 469,893 LABOUR

Dan Norris £ 450,985 LABOUR

Shahid Malik £ 446,314 LABOUR

Charlotte Atkins £ 443,244 LABOUR

David Wilshire £ 438,377 TORY

Tom Levitt £ 436,686 LABOUR

Diana Johnson £ 436,632 LABOUR

Fabian Hamilton £ 435,999 LABOUR

Jacqui Smith £ 434,909 LABOUR

Margaret Moran £ 434,456 LABOUR

Ian Austin £ 434,409 LABOUR

A. Rosindell £ 434,149 TORY

Andrew George £ 434,062 LIBDEM

Dawn Butler £ 433,865 LABOUR

Roger Godsiff £ 433,298 LABOUR

Tim Farron £ 433,260 LABOUR

Peter Hain £ 431,905 LABOUR

Norman Lamb £ 431,683 LIBDEM

S. Hesford £ 431,527 LABOUR

16 Labour, 2 Tory and 2 Lib Dem. Nuff said. The usual socialist hypocrisy.

[herewego]

Guybrush said:

herewego said:

It doesn't seem to be a very even handed article, I mean he seems to have forgotten that the Tories are just as bad but he'd rather rant about lamb and the BNP than the Tories.

Perhaps you need to look at the list of the 20 highest claimants...

Total claims 2005-08 (excluding travel)

Liam Byrne £ 478,536 LABOUR

Joan Ryan £ 469,893 LABOUR

Dan Norris £ 450,985 LABOUR

Shahid Malik £ 446,314 LABOUR

Charlotte Atkins £ 443,244 LABOUR

David Wilshire £ 438,377 TORY

Tom Levitt £ 436,686 LABOUR

Diana Johnson £ 436,632 LABOUR

Fabian Hamilton £ 435,999 LABOUR

Jacqui Smith £ 434,909 LABOUR

Margaret Moran £ 434,456 LABOUR

Ian Austin £ 434,409 LABOUR

A. Rosindell £ 434,149 TORY

Andrew George £ 434,062 LIBDEM

Dawn Butler £ 433,865 LABOUR

Roger Godsiff £ 433,298 LABOUR

Tim Farron £ 433,260 LABOUR

Peter Hain £ 431,905 LABOUR

Norman Lamb £ 431,683 LIBDEM

S. Hesford £ 431,527 LABOUR

16 Labour, 2 Tory and 2 Lib Dem. Nuff said. The usual socialist hypocrisy.

What does that have to do with anything?

[ludo]

herewego said:

Guybrush said:

herewego said:

It doesn't seem to be a very even handed article, I mean he seems to have forgotten that the Tories are just as bad but he'd rather rant about lamb and the BNP than the Tories.

Perhaps you need to look at the list of the 20 highest claimants...

Total claims 2005-08 (excluding travel)

Liam Byrne £ 478,536 LABOUR

Joan Ryan £ 469,893 LABOUR

Dan Norris £ 450,985 LABOUR

Shahid Malik £ 446,314 LABOUR

Charlotte Atkins £ 443,244 LABOUR

David Wilshire £ 438,377 TORY

Tom Levitt £ 436,686 LABOUR

Diana Johnson £ 436,632 LABOUR

Fabian Hamilton £ 435,999 LABOUR

Jacqui Smith £ 434,909 LABOUR

Margaret Moran £ 434,456 LABOUR

Ian Austin £ 434,409 LABOUR

A. Rosindell £ 434,149 TORY

Andrew George £ 434,062 LIBDEM

Dawn Butler £ 433,865 LABOUR

Roger Godsiff £ 433,298 LABOUR

Tim Farron £ 433,260 LABOUR

Peter Hain £ 431,905 LABOUR

Norman Lamb £ 431,683 LIBDEM

S. Hesford £ 431,527 LABOUR

16 Labour, 2 Tory and 2 Lib Dem. Nuff said. The usual socialist hypocrisy.

What does that have to do with anything?

Might be a good idea to include information on the location of the constituency, which I suspect is the hidden confounder here (traditional Labour areas tending to be more remote from London than traditional conservative areas). Nuff said?

[esselte]

ludo said:

herewego said:

Guybrush said:

herewego said:

It doesn't seem to be a very even handed article, I mean he seems to have forgotten that the Tories are just as bad but he'd rather rant about lamb and the BNP than the Tories.

Perhaps you need to look at the list of the 20 highest claimants...

Total claims 2005-08 (excluding travel)

Liam Byrne £ 478,536 LABOUR

Joan Ryan £ 469,893 LABOUR

Dan Norris £ 450,985 LABOUR

Shahid Malik £ 446,314 LABOUR

Charlotte Atkins £ 443,244 LABOUR

David Wilshire £ 438,377 TORY

Tom Levitt £ 436,686 LABOUR

Diana Johnson £ 436,632 LABOUR

Fabian Hamilton £ 435,999 LABOUR

Jacqui Smith £ 434,909 LABOUR

Margaret Moran £ 434,456 LABOUR

Ian Austin £ 434,409 LABOUR

A. Rosindell £ 434,149 TORY

Andrew George £ 434,062 LIBDEM

Dawn Butler £ 433,865 LABOUR

Roger Godsiff £ 433,298 LABOUR

Tim Farron £ 433,260 LABOUR

Peter Hain £ 431,905 LABOUR

Norman Lamb £ 431,683 LIBDEM

S. Hesford £ 431,527 LABOUR

16 Labour, 2 Tory and 2 Lib Dem. Nuff said. The usual socialist hypocrisy.

What does that have to do with anything?

Might be a good idea to include information on the location of the constituency, which I suspect is the hidden confounder here (traditional Labour areas tending to be more remote from London than traditional conservative areas). Nuff said?

So where are the SNP members in this list if distance to constituency is a large factor?

[TankRizzo]

ludo said:

Might be a good idea to include information on the location of the constituency, which I suspect is the hidden confounder here (traditional Labour areas tending to be more remote from London than traditional conservative areas). Nuff said?

Did it because I was bored.

Total claims 2005-08 (excluding travel)

Name	Claim	Party	Constituency
Liam Byrne	£478,536	LABOUR	Hodge Hill, Birmingham
Joan Ryan	£469,893	LABOUR	Enfield North, Greater London
Dan Norris	£450,985	LABOUR	North-East Somerset
Shahid Malik	£446,314	LABOUR	Dewsbury, West Yorkshire
Charlotte Atkins	£443,244	LABOUR	Staffordshire Moorlands
David Wilshire	£438,377	TORY	Spelthorne Surrey
Tom Levitt	£436,686	LABOUR	High Peak Derbyshire
Diana Johnson	£436,632	LABOUR	Hull North
Fabian Hamilton	£435,999	LABOUR	North East Leeds
Jacqui Smith	£434,909	LABOUR	Redditch, Worcestershire
Margaret Moran	£434,456	LABOUR	Luton South
Ian Austin	£434,409	LABOUR	Dudley North, West Midlands
A. Rosindell	£434,149	TORY	Romford, Greater London
Andrew George	£434,062	LIBDEM	St Ives & Isles of Scilly
Dawn Butler	£433,865	LABOUR	Brent South, Greater London
Roger Godsiff	£433,298	LABOUR	Birmingham Sparkbrook & Small Heath
Tim Farron	£433,260	LABOUR	Westmorland & Lonsdale, Cumbria
Peter Hain	£431,905	LABOUR	Neath, West Glamorgan
Norman Lamb	£431,683	LIBDEM	North Norfolk
S. Hesford	£431,527	LABOUR	Wirral West

Edited by TankRizzo on Tuesday 26th May 15:46

[herewego]

I think we're supposed to be concerned about false claims, not all claims.

[esselte]

herewego said:

I think we're supposed to be concerned about false claims, not all claims.

No,all claims interest me,why can some MPs appear to manage thier constituencies with a much smaller budget than others..?

[grumbledoak]

herewego said:

I think we're supposed to be concerned about false claims, not all claims.

Not with those figures. Every one of those fkers has had £100k of tax-payers money p.a. tax-free for years! False claims are worse, but these numbers are beyond a joke.

[G_T]

That is a ridiculous amount of money. Truly frightening figures.

I'm sorry but being an MP could not possibly cost that much in expenses unless you're living the life of riley off the backs of the taxpayer.

The fact it's Labour just adds to hypocrisy. "Looking out for the working man"- indeed.

[jesusbuiltmycar]

herewego said:

It doesn't seem to be a very even handed article, I mean he seems to have forgotten that the Tories are just as bad but he'd rather rant about lamb and the BNP than the Tories.

Since the title of the article is:
If any of us were caught stealing at work we'd be arrested. So why not Alistair Darling?
It would suggest it is about Alistair Darlings expenses - so why is balance required?

The article on Julie Kirbride and Andrew Mckay doesn't mention Labour MPs...

[herewego]

jesusbuiltmycar said:

herewego said:

It doesn't seem to be a very even handed article, I mean he seems to have forgotten that the Tories are just as bad but he'd rather rant about lamb and the BNP than the Tories.

Since the title of the article is:
If any of us were caught stealing at work we'd be arrested. So why not Alistair Darling?
It would suggest it is about Alistair Darlings expenses - so why is balance required?

The article on Julie Kirbride and Andrew Mckay doesn't mention Labour MPs...

If he'd stuck to writing about Darling then you might have a point.

[ludo]

TankRizzo said:

ludo said:

Might be a good idea to include information on the location of the constituency, which I suspect is the hidden confounder here (traditional Labour areas tending to be more remote from London than traditional conservative areas). Nuff said?

Did it because I was bored.

Total claims 2005-08 (excluding travel)

Name	Claim	Party	Constituency
Liam Byrne	£478,536	LABOUR	Hodge Hill, Birmingham
Joan Ryan	£469,893	LABOUR	Enfield North, Greater London
Dan Norris	£450,985	LABOUR	North-East Somerset
Shahid Malik	£446,314	LABOUR	Dewsbury, West Yorkshire
Charlotte Atkins	£443,244	LABOUR	Staffordshire Moorlands
David Wilshire	£438,377	TORY	Spelthorne Surrey
Tom Levitt	£436,686	LABOUR	High Peak Derbyshire
Diana Johnson	£436,632	LABOUR	Hull North
Fabian Hamilton	£435,999	LABOUR	North East Leeds
Jacqui Smith	£434,909	LABOUR	Redditch, Worcestershire
Margaret Moran	£434,456	LABOUR	Luton South
Ian Austin	£434,409	LABOUR	Dudley North, West Midlands
A. Rosindell	£434,149	TORY	Romford, Greater London
Andrew George	£434,062	LIBDEM	St Ives & Isles of Scilly
Dawn Butler	£433,865	LABOUR	Brent South, Greater London
Roger Godsiff	£433,298	LABOUR	Birmingham Sparkbrook & Small Heath
Tim Farron	£433,260	LABOUR	Westmorland & Lonsdale, Cumbria
Peter Hain	£431,905	LABOUR	Neath, West Glamorgan
Norman Lamb	£431,683	LIBDEM	North Norfolk
S. Hesford	£431,527	LABOUR	Wirral West

Edited by TankRizzo on Tuesday 26th May 15:46

Looks to me that there is a significant geographical bias. Note that both of the Tories in top 20 high spending MPs have essentially (greater) London constituencies (or easy commuting distance) and so shouldn't need a second home, yet both claim for one. That is about 70K over three years of unnecessary expense over someone like Lamb who doesn't live in reasonable commuting distance. Puts rather a different complextion on things when you look at it that way!

It would be straightforward to perform permutation tests to see if there was a significant difference in expenses between parties (although you would have to stratify between those with second homes and those without). Much better than evidence such as thelist given above which is prone to hidden confounders.