Today's troubles, Thatchers fault?
Discussion
Did anyone catch the Daily Mirror on the 4th of May?
I was only a young kid when she was in power and I have spent all my working life under a Labour government, its nice to see she does have some admirers on here who don't just rant on like the above article which is what I have to put up with at work on a almost daily basis. So, is she responsible for todays troubles?
My thoughts is that there has been a long time to sort this out since she left office.
Daily Mirror said:
On May 4, 1979, Margaret Thatcher strode into Number 10 and Britain changed for ever.
Standing on the steps, she quoted St Francis of Assisi…
“Where there is discord, may we bring harmony. Where there is error, may we bring truth. Where there is doubt, may we bring faith. And where there is despair, may we bring hope.”
What followed was 11 years in which she polarised the country. And 18 years after leaving office, that division remains.
Here we look at her policies and how their legacy lives on in today’s Britain…
THE BIG BANG
The roots of today’s current financial chaos can be traced directly back to October 27, 1986, when the biggest revolution in the financial markets took place.
Thatcher saw London being overtaken as the centre of world finance by New York and she decided that its problem was over-regulation. The
Big Bang saw an overhaul of the system with a “light touch” approach
to regulating banks and trading. Bonuses went through the roof as “greed is good” became the mantra and the markets became a casino.
The legacy: Ultimately, the credit crunch. Weak banking regulations led to the irresponsible lending that triggered today’s crisis. World leaders now call for stricter rules.
PRIVATISATION
Thatcher’s market-led policies saw the sale of 20 state-controlled companies including British Telecom.
Sales were marked by huge advertising campaigns, like “Tell Sid” for British Gas, which ended with a £5.4billion sell off.
She said she wanted to open up share ownership to all. But most people who bought shares in the newly-privatised firms sold quickly to make a quick profit.
The proportion of shares held by individuals rather than institutions did not actually increase.
The legacy: With the family silver sold off, market forces now set the price. And privatisation is still in the air as Gordon Brown and Lord Mandelson debate the future of the Royal Mail.
Yet the Government has also had to part-nationalise several banks to save them from collapse.
TRADE UNIONS
Thatcher seized on right-wing jibes that Britain had become the sick man of Europe to launch an unprecedented attack on the trade union movement.
Strikes were a regular occurrence and crippled the country. The three-day week was introduced under Edward Heath. And Callaghan’s Labour government in 1978 oversaw the strikes of the Winter of Discontent.
On election, Thatcher used the situation as an excuse to crush the unions. She simply refused to listen to the workers’ representatives,.
The legacy: Thatcher weakened worker’s rights to the extent that they had little control over their working conditions. Labour introduced the minimum wage but has stopped short of handing over more rights to workers.
COAL INDUSTRY
Thatcher was determined to break the miners and engineered their crippling defeat.
The Ridley Plan detailed how they would fight, and defeat, a major strike in a nationalised industry. In 1984, the National Union of Mineworkers went out on strike for a year over planned pit closures and their defeat marked the end of serious union might.
The legacy: The coal industry was sold off and gradually shut down.
Communities had their hearts ripped out when the pit closed and many have still not recovered. High unemployment still haunts many former pit villages along with poverty, suicide and depression.
COUNCIL HOUSES
When Thatcher came to power she started a revolution in home ownership by allowing council tenants to buy their own homes.
Under the right-to-buy scheme, a discount was given taking into account rent paid over the years.
Speculators took advantage of the deals on offer in high demand areas like London and filled their boots by arranging deferred payment deals.
The legacy: Increased home ownership led to greater affluence being passed from parents to children.
But the disappearance of council homes put great strain on the limited public housing stocks remaining making it harder for poor families to find places to live.
And as repossessions soar, there are 1.7 million desperate people on council house waiting lists.
POLL TAX
The introduction of the Community Charge for local government sounded the death knell for Thatcherism.
Abolishing the old rates system, the charge – quickly dubbed the Poll Tax – was worked out on a flat rate where the number of people living in a house determined its charge rate.
Middle England was incensed that a man living in a semi would end up paying the same as a millionaire in a huge mansion down the road.
The legacy: Sparked Thatcher’s downfall. The charge divided her party and was an electoral liability which led to her resignation.
The Poll Tax was replaced by the Council Tax system.
THE ECONOMY
Thatcher tackled high inflation by raising interest rates and slashing public spending.
This led to a huge rise in unemployment topping 3.6 million.
Recession hit the North and manufacturing industry hardest and factory output dropped by more than 30 per cent.
Unemployed workers were told by Norman Tebbit to get on their bikes to look for new jobs. He has since said: “She is blamed for creating three million unemployed. Of course, she didn’t. She exposed the fact that three million people were on the payroll who were not doing a job.”
The legacy: The manufacturing industry was decimated and has never recovered as Britain moved to a service economy.
Thatcher wasn’t bad for Britain.. She was terrible
By Kevin Maguire
S
he Who Must Be Obeyed will never be forgiven for crushing millions under her heels.
Thatcher wasn’t just callously indifferent to the suffering of those she made jobless or snubbed.
This PM set out to destroy entire industries in an appalling act of political and social vandalism.
Thatcher’s legacy is the drug abuse and crime in communities deliberately stripped of work and dignity. Greed isn’t good but it was her mantra and bank nationalisation is the bankruptcy of her reckless economics.
To remember the Thatcher era is to recall the hate and contempt on both sides.
When she marched into Number 10, it wasn’t bad – it was horrible, absolutely terrible. She split Britain and reaps what she sowed when so many still curse her name.
Standing on the steps, she quoted St Francis of Assisi…
“Where there is discord, may we bring harmony. Where there is error, may we bring truth. Where there is doubt, may we bring faith. And where there is despair, may we bring hope.”
What followed was 11 years in which she polarised the country. And 18 years after leaving office, that division remains.
Here we look at her policies and how their legacy lives on in today’s Britain…
THE BIG BANG
The roots of today’s current financial chaos can be traced directly back to October 27, 1986, when the biggest revolution in the financial markets took place.
Thatcher saw London being overtaken as the centre of world finance by New York and she decided that its problem was over-regulation. The
Big Bang saw an overhaul of the system with a “light touch” approach
to regulating banks and trading. Bonuses went through the roof as “greed is good” became the mantra and the markets became a casino.
The legacy: Ultimately, the credit crunch. Weak banking regulations led to the irresponsible lending that triggered today’s crisis. World leaders now call for stricter rules.
PRIVATISATION
Thatcher’s market-led policies saw the sale of 20 state-controlled companies including British Telecom.
Sales were marked by huge advertising campaigns, like “Tell Sid” for British Gas, which ended with a £5.4billion sell off.
She said she wanted to open up share ownership to all. But most people who bought shares in the newly-privatised firms sold quickly to make a quick profit.
The proportion of shares held by individuals rather than institutions did not actually increase.
The legacy: With the family silver sold off, market forces now set the price. And privatisation is still in the air as Gordon Brown and Lord Mandelson debate the future of the Royal Mail.
Yet the Government has also had to part-nationalise several banks to save them from collapse.
TRADE UNIONS
Thatcher seized on right-wing jibes that Britain had become the sick man of Europe to launch an unprecedented attack on the trade union movement.
Strikes were a regular occurrence and crippled the country. The three-day week was introduced under Edward Heath. And Callaghan’s Labour government in 1978 oversaw the strikes of the Winter of Discontent.
On election, Thatcher used the situation as an excuse to crush the unions. She simply refused to listen to the workers’ representatives,.
The legacy: Thatcher weakened worker’s rights to the extent that they had little control over their working conditions. Labour introduced the minimum wage but has stopped short of handing over more rights to workers.
COAL INDUSTRY
Thatcher was determined to break the miners and engineered their crippling defeat.
The Ridley Plan detailed how they would fight, and defeat, a major strike in a nationalised industry. In 1984, the National Union of Mineworkers went out on strike for a year over planned pit closures and their defeat marked the end of serious union might.
The legacy: The coal industry was sold off and gradually shut down.
Communities had their hearts ripped out when the pit closed and many have still not recovered. High unemployment still haunts many former pit villages along with poverty, suicide and depression.
COUNCIL HOUSES
When Thatcher came to power she started a revolution in home ownership by allowing council tenants to buy their own homes.
Under the right-to-buy scheme, a discount was given taking into account rent paid over the years.
Speculators took advantage of the deals on offer in high demand areas like London and filled their boots by arranging deferred payment deals.
The legacy: Increased home ownership led to greater affluence being passed from parents to children.
But the disappearance of council homes put great strain on the limited public housing stocks remaining making it harder for poor families to find places to live.
And as repossessions soar, there are 1.7 million desperate people on council house waiting lists.
POLL TAX
The introduction of the Community Charge for local government sounded the death knell for Thatcherism.
Abolishing the old rates system, the charge – quickly dubbed the Poll Tax – was worked out on a flat rate where the number of people living in a house determined its charge rate.
Middle England was incensed that a man living in a semi would end up paying the same as a millionaire in a huge mansion down the road.
The legacy: Sparked Thatcher’s downfall. The charge divided her party and was an electoral liability which led to her resignation.
The Poll Tax was replaced by the Council Tax system.
THE ECONOMY
Thatcher tackled high inflation by raising interest rates and slashing public spending.
This led to a huge rise in unemployment topping 3.6 million.
Recession hit the North and manufacturing industry hardest and factory output dropped by more than 30 per cent.
Unemployed workers were told by Norman Tebbit to get on their bikes to look for new jobs. He has since said: “She is blamed for creating three million unemployed. Of course, she didn’t. She exposed the fact that three million people were on the payroll who were not doing a job.”
The legacy: The manufacturing industry was decimated and has never recovered as Britain moved to a service economy.
Thatcher wasn’t bad for Britain.. She was terrible
By Kevin Maguire
S
he Who Must Be Obeyed will never be forgiven for crushing millions under her heels.
Thatcher wasn’t just callously indifferent to the suffering of those she made jobless or snubbed.
This PM set out to destroy entire industries in an appalling act of political and social vandalism.
Thatcher’s legacy is the drug abuse and crime in communities deliberately stripped of work and dignity. Greed isn’t good but it was her mantra and bank nationalisation is the bankruptcy of her reckless economics.
To remember the Thatcher era is to recall the hate and contempt on both sides.
When she marched into Number 10, it wasn’t bad – it was horrible, absolutely terrible. She split Britain and reaps what she sowed when so many still curse her name.
I was only a young kid when she was in power and I have spent all my working life under a Labour government, its nice to see she does have some admirers on here who don't just rant on like the above article which is what I have to put up with at work on a almost daily basis. So, is she responsible for todays troubles?
My thoughts is that there has been a long time to sort this out since she left office.
The Excession said:
Regardless of what she implemented, I think we should all be reminded of one of the best statements she ever made.
That's a slick soundbite, but she's the reason there are ZERO tory mps in Scotland. The suffering she caused is beyond most youngsters who weren't there to understand, and the legacy for her is there are milions upon millions of people who are delighted she's senile and who wish her a lingering gibbering decline into an undignified death. Gordon Brown's maybe a waste of space, but trust me, nothing better will come of David Cameron whose brief spell in office will be mostly remembered for it's blaming of Labour for problems he continues to fail to resolve. Maggie said:
The only problem with socialism is that you soon run out of spending other people's money.
Edited by The Excession on Wednesday 6th May 21:49
selmahoos said:
The Excession said:
Regardless of what she implemented, I think we should all be reminded of one of the best statements she ever made.
The suffering she caused is beyond most youngsters who weren't there to understand, Maggie said:
The only problem with socialism is that you soon run out of spending other people's money.
Edited by The Excession on Wednesday 6th May 21:49
R5GTTGAZ said:
Did anyone catch the Daily Mirror on the 4th of May?
........
I was only a young kid when she was in power and I have spent all my working life under a Labour government, its nice to see she does have some admirers on here who don't just rant on like the above article which is what I have to put up with at work on a almost daily basis. So, is she responsible for todays troubles?
My thoughts is that there has been a long time to sort this out since she left office.
Let me guess, the Daily Mirror isn't a Thatcher supporter. Who'd a guessed? Many many people will be shocked of course ........
I was only a young kid when she was in power and I have spent all my working life under a Labour government, its nice to see she does have some admirers on here who don't just rant on like the above article which is what I have to put up with at work on a almost daily basis. So, is she responsible for todays troubles?
My thoughts is that there has been a long time to sort this out since she left office.
As for your question - no don't be stupid. And stop trying to find the answer in the Daily Mirror.
selmahoos said:
The Excession said:
Regardless of what she implemented, I think we should all be reminded of one of the best statements she ever made.
That's a slick soundbite, but she's the reason there are ZERO tory mps in Scotland. The suffering she caused is beyond most youngsters who weren't there to understand, and the legacy for her is there are milions upon millions of people who are delighted she's senile and who wish her a lingering gibbering decline into an undignified death. Gordon Brown's maybe a waste of space, but trust me, nothing better will come of David Cameron whose brief spell in office will be mostly remembered for it's blaming of Labour for problems he continues to fail to resolve. Maggie said:
The only problem with socialism is that you soon run out of spending other people's money.
Edited by The Excession on Wednesday 6th May 21:49
Edited by smn159 on Wednesday 6th May 22:23
smn159 said:
selmahoos said:
The Excession said:
Regardless of what she implemented, I think we should all be reminded of one of the best statements she ever made.
That's a slick soundbite, but she's the reason there are ZERO tory mps in Scotland. The suffering she caused is beyond most youngsters who weren't there to understand, and the legacy for her is there are milions upon millions of people who are delighted she's senile and who wish her a lingering gibbering decline into an undignified death. Gordon Brown's maybe a waste of space, but trust me, nothing better will come of David Cameron whose brief spell in office will be mostly remembered for it's blaming of Labour for problems he continues to fail to resolve. Maggie said:
The only problem with socialism is that you soon run out of spending other people's money.
Edited by The Excession on Wednesday 6th May 21:49
FFS... she was bloody right though. Socialism requires that some one somewhare is paying for it all.
Which bit of "The only problem with socialism is that you soon run out of other people's money" don't you understand?
Seriously, look back at the last decade and tell me where all the money is coming from.
Answer that and stay fashionable.
Which bit of "The only problem with socialism is that you soon run out of other people's money" don't you understand?
Seriously, look back at the last decade and tell me where all the money is coming from.
Answer that and stay fashionable.
Whether or not the analysis is correct, the only way that article can be taken now, in 2009, is how Labour have managed to spend twelve years in power without fixing any it.
There's only so long you can plausibly use the, "a big boy did it and ran away" excuse, and I think that time is long past.
There's only so long you can plausibly use the, "a big boy did it and ran away" excuse, and I think that time is long past.
tinman0 said:
Let me guess, the Daily Mirror isn't a Thatcher supporter. Who'd a guessed? Many many people will be shocked of course
As for your question - no don't be stupid. And stop trying to find the answer in the Daily Mirror.
On the other hand though, i did get quite a surprise one day last week. The Jeremy Vine show, which really is 'Radio Daily Mail', had a 'Maggie - Good or Bad' piece on the one day, and i recall smirking and thinking that i knew how that was going to go, but i was wrong. A lot of people were phoning in and denouncing her, which given the demographic behind the show really, really surprised me.As for your question - no don't be stupid. And stop trying to find the answer in the Daily Mirror.
The Excession said:
FFS... she was bloody right though. Socialism requires that some one somewhare is paying for it all.
Which bit of "The only problem with socialism is that you soon run out of other people's money" don't you understand?
Seriously, look back at the last decade and tell me where all the money is coming from.
Answer that and stay fashionable.
You must think that money grows on trees then, if you don't think that our money doesn't pay for everything. Ultimately, it all comes from us.Which bit of "The only problem with socialism is that you soon run out of other people's money" don't you understand?
Seriously, look back at the last decade and tell me where all the money is coming from.
Answer that and stay fashionable.
ked the country over for the last 10 years and want to blame maggie thatcher for all the multitudes of fMGF_Wanty said:
Whatever happened after the late 80s - it ended with a brilliant economy in the mid 90s and one where any decent chancellor would have stashed some surplus away for just such a rainy day, instead of spunking it all on an already inefficient and wasteful public sector.
Spot on. Labour have utterly shafted the good economy they inherited in 1997. ...and Scotland's GDP is worse than ever, the public sector being a huge employer there as well as Northern Ireland and Wales.Timberwolf said:
Whether or not the analysis is correct, the only way that article can be taken now, in 2009, is how Labour have managed to spend twelve years in power without fixing any it.
There's only so long you can plausibly use the, "a big boy did it and ran away" excuse, and I think that time is long past.
I would agree with that. Labour have squandered the chance to repair a lot of the damage done by previous governments. You can't keep blaming someone else.There's only so long you can plausibly use the, "a big boy did it and ran away" excuse, and I think that time is long past.
But I do have the opinion that Thatcher initiated a fundamental change in peoples' attitudes towards a more selfish way of life, looking after no.1 , me first, win-at-all-costs, dog-eat-dog sort of thing. I don't think that can be changed, and I do think the roots of society's problems lie therein.
Very biased reporting. Can't be bothered to analyse it all, but just looking at the miners' situation, the country was financially shagged, being held to ransom by the unions and coal was costing us £1000 per ton net loss to drag out of the floor.
The reason for this cost is that it was an industry that had suffered from a lack of investment / modernisation by successive red and blue governments over 30plus years. There was a hard decision to make - broadly speaking.
a) Can we afford to keep paying increasing and extortionate amounts to keep these people in a job producing an highly uncompetitive product.
b) Can we afford to invest to the levels necessary to put our coal industry where it should have been in the late 70's should it have had the right investment over the years?
c) Can we afford a coal industry at all.
Out of those options, there was only one decision available. The coincidence is that Thatch also managed to give the unions a smack in the face at the same time, and we all stopped eating our dinner by candlelight in front of a blank television, had sugar for our tea and coffee and the bins got emptied.
The thing is, there were some very hard decisions to make at her entry to office - not all Labour's fault, but the UK was badly broken. She had the balls to make those necessary and unpopular decisions, and deserves some credit for that at least.
So let's look at today. The UK is badly broken, but in a different way. Who has the balls to make the tough and unpopular decisions today? Is that a rush of leaders I hear.... oh no, its a
The reason for this cost is that it was an industry that had suffered from a lack of investment / modernisation by successive red and blue governments over 30plus years. There was a hard decision to make - broadly speaking.
a) Can we afford to keep paying increasing and extortionate amounts to keep these people in a job producing an highly uncompetitive product.
b) Can we afford to invest to the levels necessary to put our coal industry where it should have been in the late 70's should it have had the right investment over the years?
c) Can we afford a coal industry at all.
Out of those options, there was only one decision available. The coincidence is that Thatch also managed to give the unions a smack in the face at the same time, and we all stopped eating our dinner by candlelight in front of a blank television, had sugar for our tea and coffee and the bins got emptied.
The thing is, there were some very hard decisions to make at her entry to office - not all Labour's fault, but the UK was badly broken. She had the balls to make those necessary and unpopular decisions, and deserves some credit for that at least.
So let's look at today. The UK is badly broken, but in a different way. Who has the balls to make the tough and unpopular decisions today? Is that a rush of leaders I hear.... oh no, its a
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