Pakistan... Taliban...
Discussion
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pak...
These stories are getting more and more common, with the Taliban gaining more and more infulence in parts of pakistan.
Quite frightening when you consider they have nuclear weapons.
And what will pakistan do....
These stories are getting more and more common, with the Taliban gaining more and more infulence in parts of pakistan.
Quite frightening when you consider they have nuclear weapons.
And what will pakistan do....
The Taleban are getting closer to Islamabad - allegedly the US has told them to sort the problem out, or the US will take action on pakistani soil.
pakistan is fudging the issue, by making noises, but without really taking aggressive action. On the one hand they can't allow the US to take action, on the other hand, they can't upset 'the tribes'.
pakistan is fudging the issue, by making noises, but without really taking aggressive action. On the one hand they can't allow the US to take action, on the other hand, they can't upset 'the tribes'.
devonshiredave said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pak...
These stories are getting more and more common, with the Taliban gaining more and more infulence in parts of pakistan.
Quite frightening when you consider they have nuclear weapons.
And what will pakistan do....
Bear in mind that these parts of pakistan have never truly been under Islamabad's control. They're tribal areas which are effectively lawless. This also means that they don't influence the "democratic" process in pakistan. These stories are getting more and more common, with the Taliban gaining more and more infulence in parts of pakistan.
Quite frightening when you consider they have nuclear weapons.
And what will pakistan do....
Still not good though.
Martial Arts Man said:
Does anyone know what India's take on this is?
Let's be honest here, the India/USA axis isn't going to let the Taliban get their hands on the nukes now are they?
Whatever the consequences.
Given the typically fatalistic approach to life which characterises the Indian nation, I'd expect it to be swift, bloody, and probably involving large mushroom clouds.Let's be honest here, the India/USA axis isn't going to let the Taliban get their hands on the nukes now are they?
Whatever the consequences.
Dunk76 said:
Martial Arts Man said:
Does anyone know what India's take on this is?
Let's be honest here, the India/USA axis isn't going to let the Taliban get their hands on the nukes now are they?
Whatever the consequences.
Given the typically fatalistic approach to life which characterises the Indian nation, I'd expect it to be swift, bloody, and probably involving large mushroom clouds.Let's be honest here, the India/USA axis isn't going to let the Taliban get their hands on the nukes now are they?
Whatever the consequences.
India already has the militants crossing the mountains from the north on the kashmir side...last thing they need is the morth west borders also being compromised.
So I bet they are working hard with the USA to make sure that the Taliban are dead in their tracks!
bobbylondonuk said:
Dunk76 said:
Martial Arts Man said:
Does anyone know what India's take on this is?
Let's be honest here, the India/USA axis isn't going to let the Taliban get their hands on the nukes now are they?
Whatever the consequences.
Given the typically fatalistic approach to life which characterises the Indian nation, I'd expect it to be swift, bloody, and probably involving large mushroom clouds.Let's be honest here, the India/USA axis isn't going to let the Taliban get their hands on the nukes now are they?
Whatever the consequences.
India already has the militants crossing the mountains from the north on the kashmir side...last thing they need is the morth west borders also being compromised.
So I bet they are working hard with the USA to make sure that the Taliban are dead in their tracks!
Although I know comparatively little about India, I feel nothing but warmth towards it and its people. If only they could cure Delhi belly I'd be there in a shot.
Great timing. Today I was issued a tourist visa for pakistan and in the next two months plan on riding from one side of it to the other on a moped. This is what i reckon...
pakistan does have problems. Lots of them, all of which are now being scrutinised and displayed quite neatly for us all to go, 'oh gee, that country's f
ked.' The Taliban, lawlessnes, Sharia law, nuclear weapons, the whole kit and kaboodle.
But at the end of the day the country's still just made up of people,just like you and me, and if there's one thing i've learnt since leaving Sydney and riding to Bangkok is that fundamentally we're the same everywhere. I don't want to sound preachy or anything but can we really sit there and criticise a nation when I've just read about two Englishman who tortured and murdered a couple of students for drug money? I mean really, that's crazy that two people, living in a society that kinda tolerates drugs, to go out and stick a knife in someone's face 130 odd times or whatever it was just so they can buy some more?
I came through East Timor. Apparently they're all nutjobs there. Crazy, killing each other, wanting to fight. Yet when you actually get arrive on the island you realise they just want a bit of peace and quiet like the rest of us. They're happy, content, couldn't care less. A lot of the problem, like it is with pakistan, is all the grand governments of this world sticking their beaks in becasue they think there's a pound in it for them.
Same with the most of the people in Bangkok the other day when the place was suppossed to be burning. The media said not to come and avoid it at all costs, people were being shot etc etc etc, when in truth you could walk amongst the protesters and drink the whiskey they offered you. No trouble apart from the prats at the end who got out their petrol bombs and burnt a bus. Same with any party.
I'm not saying pakistan's safe. fk, I'm twitchy as hell about going through there but I've seen and heard too many people rant and rave about how dangerous a place is - even Australians about Australia - and how close to disaster a country's nearing only to arrive there and find less crime and fewer social issues than those we have in England and the rest of the west. As far as I can see we've got nothing to shout about or lecture on when it comes to peaceful societies.
And I heard the man on the news crap on about the Taliban and Sharia law as though it's one foot through the gate into hell, yet from the people I speak to - like the chap from Afganistan who I met at the pakistan embassy - is that they generally don't live in fear of it, jut respect that if they do anything wrong - rob a house, kill someone, sleep with the neighbour, - then you're in big trouble.
It was kinda the same in Indonesia. Steal from a house and the police let the neighbourhood deal with you. You don't do it twice. Murder someone and you've had it. Lynch mob. Cleary there's a few short comings with that approach but compare it to the lawlessness of Britain where you can get stabbed in the street for a cigarette and you begin wonder - well at least I do - just who has got it right. Them or us?
So pakistan a big threat to world order? Nah, there's just people.
pakistan does have problems. Lots of them, all of which are now being scrutinised and displayed quite neatly for us all to go, 'oh gee, that country's f
ked.' The Taliban, lawlessnes, Sharia law, nuclear weapons, the whole kit and kaboodle.But at the end of the day the country's still just made up of people,just like you and me, and if there's one thing i've learnt since leaving Sydney and riding to Bangkok is that fundamentally we're the same everywhere. I don't want to sound preachy or anything but can we really sit there and criticise a nation when I've just read about two Englishman who tortured and murdered a couple of students for drug money? I mean really, that's crazy that two people, living in a society that kinda tolerates drugs, to go out and stick a knife in someone's face 130 odd times or whatever it was just so they can buy some more?
I came through East Timor. Apparently they're all nutjobs there. Crazy, killing each other, wanting to fight. Yet when you actually get arrive on the island you realise they just want a bit of peace and quiet like the rest of us. They're happy, content, couldn't care less. A lot of the problem, like it is with pakistan, is all the grand governments of this world sticking their beaks in becasue they think there's a pound in it for them.
Same with the most of the people in Bangkok the other day when the place was suppossed to be burning. The media said not to come and avoid it at all costs, people were being shot etc etc etc, when in truth you could walk amongst the protesters and drink the whiskey they offered you. No trouble apart from the prats at the end who got out their petrol bombs and burnt a bus. Same with any party.
I'm not saying pakistan's safe. f
k, I'm twitchy as hell about going through there but I've seen and heard too many people rant and rave about how dangerous a place is - even Australians about Australia - and how close to disaster a country's nearing only to arrive there and find less crime and fewer social issues than those we have in England and the rest of the west. As far as I can see we've got nothing to shout about or lecture on when it comes to peaceful societies. And I heard the man on the news crap on about the Taliban and Sharia law as though it's one foot through the gate into hell, yet from the people I speak to - like the chap from Afganistan who I met at the pakistan embassy - is that they generally don't live in fear of it, jut respect that if they do anything wrong - rob a house, kill someone, sleep with the neighbour, - then you're in big trouble.
It was kinda the same in Indonesia. Steal from a house and the police let the neighbourhood deal with you. You don't do it twice. Murder someone and you've had it. Lynch mob. Cleary there's a few short comings with that approach but compare it to the lawlessness of Britain where you can get stabbed in the street for a cigarette and you begin wonder - well at least I do - just who has got it right. Them or us?
So pakistan a big threat to world order? Nah, there's just people.
Edited by jumpingloci on Tuesday 28th April 15:02
jumpingloci said:
Great timing. Today I was issued a tourist visa for pakistan and in the next two months plan on riding from one side of it to the other on a moped. This is what i reckon...
pakistan does have problems. Lots of them, all of which are now being scrutinised and displayed quite neatly for us all to go, 'oh gee, that country's fked.' The Taliban, lawlessnes, Sharia law, nuclear weapons, the whole kit and kaboodle.
But at the end of the day the country's still just made up of people,just like you and me, and if there's one thing i've learnt since leaving Sydney and riding to Bangkok is that while fundamentally we're the same everywhere. I don't want to sound preachy or anything but can we really sit there and criticise a nation when I've just read about two Englishman who tortured and murdered a couple of students for drug money? I mean really, that's crazy that two people, living in a society that kinda tolerates drugs, to go out and stick a knife in someone's face 130 odd times or whatever it was just so they can buy some more?
I came through East Timor. Apparently they're all nutjobs there. Crazy, killing each other, wanting to fight. Yet when you actually get arrive on the island you realise they just want a bit of peace and quiet like the rest of us. They're happy, content, couldn't care less. A lot of the problem, like it is with pakistan, is all the grand governments of this world sticking their beaks in becasue they think there's a pound in it for them.
Same with the most of the people in Bangkok the other day when the place was suppossed to be burning. The media said not to come and avoid it at all costs, people were being shot etc etc etc, when in truth you could walk amongst the protesters and drink the whiskey they offered you. No trouble apart from the prats at the end who got out their petrol bombs and burnt a bus. Same with any party.
I'm not saying pakistan's safe. fk, I'm twitchy as hell about going through there but I've seen and heard too many people rant and rave about how dangerous a place is - even Australians about Australia - and how close to disaster a country's nearing only to arrive there and find less crime and fewer social issues than those we have in England and the rest of the west. As far as I can see we've got nothing to shout about or lecture on when it comes to peaceful societies.
And I heard the man on the news crap on about the Taliban and Sharia law as though it's one foot through the gate into hell, yet from the people I speak to - like the chap from Afganistan who I met at the pakistan embassy - is that they generally don't live in fear of it, jut respect that if they do anything wrong - rob a house, kill someone, sleep with the neighbour, - then you're in big trouble.
It was kinda the same in Indonesia. Steal from a house and the police let the neighbourhood deal with you. You don't do it twice. Murder someone and you've had it. Lynch mob. Cleary there's a few short comings with that approach but compare it to the lawlessness of Britain where you can get stabbed in the street for a cigarette and you begin wonder - well at least I do - just who has got it right. Them or us?
So pakistan a big threat to world order? Nah, there's just people.
Dont think much of your argument. Germans were just people too, didnt stop them being a threat to world order a few decades ago. Just depends on how big the Taliban could get. pakistan does have problems. Lots of them, all of which are now being scrutinised and displayed quite neatly for us all to go, 'oh gee, that country's f
ked.' The Taliban, lawlessnes, Sharia law, nuclear weapons, the whole kit and kaboodle.But at the end of the day the country's still just made up of people,just like you and me, and if there's one thing i've learnt since leaving Sydney and riding to Bangkok is that while fundamentally we're the same everywhere. I don't want to sound preachy or anything but can we really sit there and criticise a nation when I've just read about two Englishman who tortured and murdered a couple of students for drug money? I mean really, that's crazy that two people, living in a society that kinda tolerates drugs, to go out and stick a knife in someone's face 130 odd times or whatever it was just so they can buy some more?
I came through East Timor. Apparently they're all nutjobs there. Crazy, killing each other, wanting to fight. Yet when you actually get arrive on the island you realise they just want a bit of peace and quiet like the rest of us. They're happy, content, couldn't care less. A lot of the problem, like it is with pakistan, is all the grand governments of this world sticking their beaks in becasue they think there's a pound in it for them.
Same with the most of the people in Bangkok the other day when the place was suppossed to be burning. The media said not to come and avoid it at all costs, people were being shot etc etc etc, when in truth you could walk amongst the protesters and drink the whiskey they offered you. No trouble apart from the prats at the end who got out their petrol bombs and burnt a bus. Same with any party.
I'm not saying pakistan's safe. f
k, I'm twitchy as hell about going through there but I've seen and heard too many people rant and rave about how dangerous a place is - even Australians about Australia - and how close to disaster a country's nearing only to arrive there and find less crime and fewer social issues than those we have in England and the rest of the west. As far as I can see we've got nothing to shout about or lecture on when it comes to peaceful societies. And I heard the man on the news crap on about the Taliban and Sharia law as though it's one foot through the gate into hell, yet from the people I speak to - like the chap from Afganistan who I met at the pakistan embassy - is that they generally don't live in fear of it, jut respect that if they do anything wrong - rob a house, kill someone, sleep with the neighbour, - then you're in big trouble.
It was kinda the same in Indonesia. Steal from a house and the police let the neighbourhood deal with you. You don't do it twice. Murder someone and you've had it. Lynch mob. Cleary there's a few short comings with that approach but compare it to the lawlessness of Britain where you can get stabbed in the street for a cigarette and you begin wonder - well at least I do - just who has got it right. Them or us?
So pakistan a big threat to world order? Nah, there's just people.
Fair point. Probably not the most water tight of arguements I'll admit. Suppose it was just an over senstive response, based on recent experiences, to much of the rubbish we get fed these days. I'll take it back.
Actually no, I've changed my mind. Okay, so the whole German things an example of what happens when we let things get to the extreme, but the rest of the time no, I don't think it helps to have all this sensationalist crap we get. As a counter arguement we don't have to look any further than Iraq. 'They have this, they're capable of that, if we don't do this they will do that, blah blah blah.' And all of a sudden every Iraqi man and his dog are seen on the same side as those who are causing the trouble. When really they're not. I'm hoping it's the same with pakistan. 90% good, 10% bad.
Maybe it's the optimistic in me that says hang on, things will b efine. And boy I sure hope I'm right because when I cross that border into pakistan I'm not going to be able to out-run any Taliban bogeys on a bike capable of no more than 50 clicks.
So I don't agree with your arguement that we should bring down the great bulging hammer of judgement on a country or its people just because one man shot a bullet at another. In my mind I'll be drinking gin with the Taliban by the end of my trip. If not I'll have been shot, thus proving me wrong and you right.
Actually no, I've changed my mind. Okay, so the whole German things an example of what happens when we let things get to the extreme, but the rest of the time no, I don't think it helps to have all this sensationalist crap we get. As a counter arguement we don't have to look any further than Iraq. 'They have this, they're capable of that, if we don't do this they will do that, blah blah blah.' And all of a sudden every Iraqi man and his dog are seen on the same side as those who are causing the trouble. When really they're not. I'm hoping it's the same with pakistan. 90% good, 10% bad.
Maybe it's the optimistic in me that says hang on, things will b efine. And boy I sure hope I'm right because when I cross that border into pakistan I'm not going to be able to out-run any Taliban bogeys on a bike capable of no more than 50 clicks.
So I don't agree with your arguement that we should bring down the great bulging hammer of judgement on a country or its people just because one man shot a bullet at another. In my mind I'll be drinking gin with the Taliban by the end of my trip. If not I'll have been shot, thus proving me wrong and you right.
Edited by jumpingloci on Tuesday 28th April 15:28
Edited by jumpingloci on Tuesday 28th April 15:29
The issue in pakistan is that the tribal areas which could not be controlled and assimilated into the general pakistani way of government have been taken over by the Taliban due to the tribal way of life which is conservative islamic traditions.
Nothing wrong with that..the only difference is they didnt vote for the Taliban.
Question arises as to how this would affect other parts of the world when the Taliban style groups engage in taking over areas to impose their way of life by force. That is what most democratic and free societies dont want!
I have to agree....certain elements of Sharia criminal Law is worth implementing in any society. Keywords being certain elements..but judged by the current free thinking strong evidence based judicial system.eg
Robbery= Amputation
Rape=public caning
Assault, GBH = public caning
We would halve our prison budgets and reduce crime within 5 years to virtually a crime free society. The reason is simple..we look after prisoners rights rather than punishing the guilty. Instilling of Fear of punishment by law does make an impact and that cannot be denied.
Disclaimer: certain elements of Sharia Criminal Law which deter criminals are the ones I agree to...all others are not conducive to a free thinking society.
Nothing wrong with that..the only difference is they didnt vote for the Taliban.
Question arises as to how this would affect other parts of the world when the Taliban style groups engage in taking over areas to impose their way of life by force. That is what most democratic and free societies dont want!
I have to agree....certain elements of Sharia criminal Law is worth implementing in any society. Keywords being certain elements..but judged by the current free thinking strong evidence based judicial system.eg
Robbery= Amputation
Rape=public caning
Assault, GBH = public caning
We would halve our prison budgets and reduce crime within 5 years to virtually a crime free society. The reason is simple..we look after prisoners rights rather than punishing the guilty. Instilling of Fear of punishment by law does make an impact and that cannot be denied.
Disclaimer: certain elements of Sharia Criminal Law which deter criminals are the ones I agree to...all others are not conducive to a free thinking society.
Puggit said:
I wonder if the upsurge in problems in pakistan is caused by an influx of Taliban from Afghanistan because it's just too damned difficult to practise their macabre version of Islam back home?
From my limited knowledge of the area and people....I think it is because the govts. of pakistan could never work with the tribal areas to modernise them and build the areas to be economically successful. The tribal areas were always traditionally pro taliban style..so it is easy for the afghan taliban to mix in and establish their influence. And now they rule the joint!s2art said:
jumpingloci said:
Great timing. Today I was issued a tourist visa for pakistan and in the next two months plan on riding from one side of it to the other on a moped. This is what i reckon...
pakistan does have problems. Lots of them, all of which are now being scrutinised and displayed quite neatly for us all to go, 'oh gee, that country's fked.' The Taliban, lawlessnes, Sharia law, nuclear weapons, the whole kit and kaboodle.
But at the end of the day the country's still just made up of people,just like you and me, and if there's one thing i've learnt since leaving Sydney and riding to Bangkok is that while fundamentally we're the same everywhere. I don't want to sound preachy or anything but can we really sit there and criticise a nation when I've just read about two Englishman who tortured and murdered a couple of students for drug money? I mean really, that's crazy that two people, living in a society that kinda tolerates drugs, to go out and stick a knife in someone's face 130 odd times or whatever it was just so they can buy some more?
I came through East Timor. Apparently they're all nutjobs there. Crazy, killing each other, wanting to fight. Yet when you actually get arrive on the island you realise they just want a bit of peace and quiet like the rest of us. They're happy, content, couldn't care less. A lot of the problem, like it is with pakistan, is all the grand governments of this world sticking their beaks in becasue they think there's a pound in it for them.
Same with the most of the people in Bangkok the other day when the place was suppossed to be burning. The media said not to come and avoid it at all costs, people were being shot etc etc etc, when in truth you could walk amongst the protesters and drink the whiskey they offered you. No trouble apart from the prats at the end who got out their petrol bombs and burnt a bus. Same with any party.
I'm not saying pakistan's safe. fk, I'm twitchy as hell about going through there but I've seen and heard too many people rant and rave about how dangerous a place is - even Australians about Australia - and how close to disaster a country's nearing only to arrive there and find less crime and fewer social issues than those we have in England and the rest of the west. As far as I can see we've got nothing to shout about or lecture on when it comes to peaceful societies.
And I heard the man on the news crap on about the Taliban and Sharia law as though it's one foot through the gate into hell, yet from the people I speak to - like the chap from Afganistan who I met at the pakistan embassy - is that they generally don't live in fear of it, jut respect that if they do anything wrong - rob a house, kill someone, sleep with the neighbour, - then you're in big trouble.
It was kinda the same in Indonesia. Steal from a house and the police let the neighbourhood deal with you. You don't do it twice. Murder someone and you've had it. Lynch mob. Cleary there's a few short comings with that approach but compare it to the lawlessness of Britain where you can get stabbed in the street for a cigarette and you begin wonder - well at least I do - just who has got it right. Them or us?
So pakistan a big threat to world order? Nah, there's just people.
Dont think much of your argument. Germans were just people too, didnt stop them being a threat to world order a few decades ago. Just depends on how big the Taliban could get. pakistan does have problems. Lots of them, all of which are now being scrutinised and displayed quite neatly for us all to go, 'oh gee, that country's f
ked.' The Taliban, lawlessnes, Sharia law, nuclear weapons, the whole kit and kaboodle.But at the end of the day the country's still just made up of people,just like you and me, and if there's one thing i've learnt since leaving Sydney and riding to Bangkok is that while fundamentally we're the same everywhere. I don't want to sound preachy or anything but can we really sit there and criticise a nation when I've just read about two Englishman who tortured and murdered a couple of students for drug money? I mean really, that's crazy that two people, living in a society that kinda tolerates drugs, to go out and stick a knife in someone's face 130 odd times or whatever it was just so they can buy some more?
I came through East Timor. Apparently they're all nutjobs there. Crazy, killing each other, wanting to fight. Yet when you actually get arrive on the island you realise they just want a bit of peace and quiet like the rest of us. They're happy, content, couldn't care less. A lot of the problem, like it is with pakistan, is all the grand governments of this world sticking their beaks in becasue they think there's a pound in it for them.
Same with the most of the people in Bangkok the other day when the place was suppossed to be burning. The media said not to come and avoid it at all costs, people were being shot etc etc etc, when in truth you could walk amongst the protesters and drink the whiskey they offered you. No trouble apart from the prats at the end who got out their petrol bombs and burnt a bus. Same with any party.
I'm not saying pakistan's safe. f
k, I'm twitchy as hell about going through there but I've seen and heard too many people rant and rave about how dangerous a place is - even Australians about Australia - and how close to disaster a country's nearing only to arrive there and find less crime and fewer social issues than those we have in England and the rest of the west. As far as I can see we've got nothing to shout about or lecture on when it comes to peaceful societies. And I heard the man on the news crap on about the Taliban and Sharia law as though it's one foot through the gate into hell, yet from the people I speak to - like the chap from Afganistan who I met at the pakistan embassy - is that they generally don't live in fear of it, jut respect that if they do anything wrong - rob a house, kill someone, sleep with the neighbour, - then you're in big trouble.
It was kinda the same in Indonesia. Steal from a house and the police let the neighbourhood deal with you. You don't do it twice. Murder someone and you've had it. Lynch mob. Cleary there's a few short comings with that approach but compare it to the lawlessness of Britain where you can get stabbed in the street for a cigarette and you begin wonder - well at least I do - just who has got it right. Them or us?
So pakistan a big threat to world order? Nah, there's just people.
It is mistake to assume that only monsters are capable of evil deeds. Most people everywhere are pretty decent.
I mentioned the prospect of pakistan coming under Taliban control a while back on PH, was pretty much laughed at (along with my comments that moderate Muslims are either complicit or useless in the fight against extremism because theu never turn against their 'brothers')
There has now been a string of high profile military and political commentators who are now seeing this as the greatest threat the world faces.
Could be messy for Britain with a large pakistani population when we have to attack their country, or something even worse like a pre-emptive nuclear strike from the US or India.
There has now been a string of high profile military and political commentators who are now seeing this as the greatest threat the world faces.
Could be messy for Britain with a large pakistani population when we have to attack their country, or something even worse like a pre-emptive nuclear strike from the US or India.
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