Strategic defence review
Discussion
https://news.sky.com/story/uk-to-buy-up-to-7-000-l...
Looks like it's been given to the press, official out on Monday.
Will it be a big change or a big shopping list that never gets bought.
Looks like it's been given to the press, official out on Monday.
Will it be a big change or a big shopping list that never gets bought.
Seems like (rightly), there's more of a concerted effort this time than usual to increase stocks and capability. 6 new factories creating 1,800 UK jobs is great news.
Very interested also to hear the detail behind us looking to buy aircraft capable of carrying tactical nuclear weapons. The F35 can carry the B61 bomb, though obviously it's an American weapon- so wonder if the announcement is related to this? I can't see us buying B1Bs or B52s!
Very interested also to hear the detail behind us looking to buy aircraft capable of carrying tactical nuclear weapons. The F35 can carry the B61 bomb, though obviously it's an American weapon- so wonder if the announcement is related to this? I can't see us buying B1Bs or B52s!
Fusion777 said:
Seems like (rightly), there's more of a concerted effort this time than usual to increase stocks and capability. 6 new factories creating 1,800 UK jobs is great news.
Very interested also to hear the detail behind us looking to buy aircraft capable of carrying tactical nuclear weapons. The F35 can carry the B61 bomb, though obviously it's an American weapon- so wonder if the announcement is related to this? I can't see us buying B1Bs or B52s!
We cancelled development of our own next gen fighter thr "Tempest" so buying a US one seems a good idea.Very interested also to hear the detail behind us looking to buy aircraft capable of carrying tactical nuclear weapons. The F35 can carry the B61 bomb, though obviously it's an American weapon- so wonder if the announcement is related to this? I can't see us buying B1Bs or B52s!
Gecko1978 said:
We cancelled development of our own next gen fighter thr "Tempest" so buying a US one seems a good idea.
Depends what you mean by 'cancelled', but not really. We merged our sixth-gen fighter development project with those of Italy and Japan, with work and suppliers split 60/20/20 UK/IT/JP. So we're still very much getting Tempest. Gecko1978 said:
Fusion777 said:
Seems like (rightly), there's more of a concerted effort this time than usual to increase stocks and capability. 6 new factories creating 1,800 UK jobs is great news.
Very interested also to hear the detail behind us looking to buy aircraft capable of carrying tactical nuclear weapons. The F35 can carry the B61 bomb, though obviously it's an American weapon- so wonder if the announcement is related to this? I can't see us buying B1Bs or B52s!
We cancelled development of our own next gen fighter thr "Tempest" so buying a US one seems a good idea.Very interested also to hear the detail behind us looking to buy aircraft capable of carrying tactical nuclear weapons. The F35 can carry the B61 bomb, though obviously it's an American weapon- so wonder if the announcement is related to this? I can't see us buying B1Bs or B52s!
According to this the sea vixen was able to carry the last version we had https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/WE.177
I can’t see why a typhoon couldn’t deliver one.
I only skimmed it but looks like under 500kg but a yield up to 450 kilotons.
I can’t see why a typhoon couldn’t deliver one.
I only skimmed it but looks like under 500kg but a yield up to 450 kilotons.
trickywoo said:
According to this the sea vixen was able to carry the last version we had https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/WE.177
I can t see why a typhoon couldn t deliver one.
I only skimmed it but looks like under 500kg but a yield up to 450 kilotons.
WE177 is ancient- a 1960s design! The Tornado could carry it, I believe. There isn't a UK nuclear gravity bomb at the minute, we'd have to design one. Don't know if the Nuclear non-proliferation treaty would allow the Americans to sell us the B61.I can t see why a typhoon couldn t deliver one.
I only skimmed it but looks like under 500kg but a yield up to 450 kilotons.
Fusion777 said:
WE177 is ancient- a 1960s design! The Tornado could carry it, I believe.
Don t see what the design year has to do with anything. If it can deliver 450 kilotons in a 500kg package it sounds pretty sweet to me.Isn t this just a deterrent anyway? As soon as these start to be slung around the strategic missiles won t be far behind. I d argue if the threat they provide is credible whether or not they actually do the business is incidental.
trickywoo said:
Don t see what the design year has to do with anything. If it can deliver 450 kilotons in a 500kg package it sounds pretty sweet to me.
Isn t this just a deterrent anyway? As soon as these start to be slung around the strategic missiles won t be far behind. I d argue if the threat they provide is credible whether or not they actually do the business is incidental.
The WE177 was withdrawn from service in 1998, so any production/service facilities will be long gone. Technology also moves on- further miniturisation, better guidance systems and so on.Isn t this just a deterrent anyway? As soon as these start to be slung around the strategic missiles won t be far behind. I d argue if the threat they provide is credible whether or not they actually do the business is incidental.
450kt is larger than anything we have now- our warheads on Trident are 100kt max. Maybe it will be the B61 Mod 12, which is 50kt.
An increase in defence spending doesn’t necessarily mean it’ll be good for the soldiers on the front line. It just means the industry profits more.
From my own experience, defence contracts are badly written and their main purpose the increase the industry share price and provide more goods on the front line.
The elephant in the room is this corruption is not accidental as the Generals and Politicians …looking for their next job… are fully complicit and turn a blind eye.
Examples of this are projects that are over budget, years late and not fit for purpose. Such as the Ajax armoured fighting vehicle, problems with the Queens Elizebeth class aircraft carriers and how much the F-35 being the most expensive military project in history.
Does the UK taxpayer receive good value for money? No
Is the arms industry ever held accountable for the overspend and failing to meet the contract requirements ? No
From my own experience, defence contracts are badly written and their main purpose the increase the industry share price and provide more goods on the front line.
The elephant in the room is this corruption is not accidental as the Generals and Politicians …looking for their next job… are fully complicit and turn a blind eye.
Examples of this are projects that are over budget, years late and not fit for purpose. Such as the Ajax armoured fighting vehicle, problems with the Queens Elizebeth class aircraft carriers and how much the F-35 being the most expensive military project in history.
Does the UK taxpayer receive good value for money? No
Is the arms industry ever held accountable for the overspend and failing to meet the contract requirements ? No
2xChevrons said:
Gecko1978 said:
We cancelled development of our own next gen fighter thr "Tempest" so buying a US one seems a good idea.
Depends what you mean by 'cancelled', but not really. We merged our sixth-gen fighter development project with those of Italy and Japan, with work and suppliers split 60/20/20 UK/IT/JP. So we're still very much getting Tempest. 
There will be gold plating, gold plating, and more gold plating announced tomorrow. Much of which will already be in train, most of which will get swallowed up in internal inertial, politics, the increased cost of paying above inflation wages and public sector pension contributions, and increased BAe profits.
Meanwhile Ukraine flies twenty home made drones out of the back of lorries and wipes out billions of rubles worth of aircraft.
We're a Jurassic joke, totally stuck in our ways, utterly incapable of keeping with the reality of modern warfare, wedded to things like billion pound aircraft and unreliable ships to carry them.
Meanwhile Ukraine flies twenty home made drones out of the back of lorries and wipes out billions of rubles worth of aircraft.
We're a Jurassic joke, totally stuck in our ways, utterly incapable of keeping with the reality of modern warfare, wedded to things like billion pound aircraft and unreliable ships to carry them.
Fusion777 said:
The F35 can carry the B61 bomb, though obviously it's an American weapon!
I would suggest that this announcement virtually confirms that we'll be buy the F-35A model (conventional take-off version, different to the B model "jump-jet version we already have) and that we'll also be joining the NATO/US DCA (Dual Capable Aircraft) programme.DCA is where the US "loans" a certain number of B-61 free-fall nukes between 7 NATO members (currently Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, the United States themselves, Turkey, and finally Greece) for when the poop hits the fans, so the US looks after them, stores, maintains them etc but the other nations have to train on how to drop them "once" the US gives them out at a time of full scale nuclear war.
Its benefits are that "we get nukes" to add to our Trident weapons to increase redundancy, less costs involved as we don't need to make/store etc the weapons, but as a potential negative, we're also extremely reliant on the US and its ever fickle politics to maintain the programme.
However, F-35A models will be cool, allowing the RN to finally get the B model to keep on their Carrier and the RAF to get the A model with its advantages over the B model - I just wonder if that is what will happen, or will we sill try to bodge two completely different ways of working (RN vs RAF) as we currently are which benefits no-one really in my experience.
macron said:
There will be gold plating, gold plating, and more gold plating announced tomorrow. Much of which will already be in train, most of which will get swallowed up in internal inertial, politics, the increased cost of paying above inflation wages and public sector pension contributions, and increased BAe profits.
Meanwhile Ukraine flies twenty home made drones out of the back of lorries and wipes out billions of rubles worth of aircraft.
We're a Jurassic joke, totally stuck in our ways, utterly incapable of keeping with the reality of modern warfare, wedded to things like billion pound aircraft and unreliable ships to carry them.
Those planes were cold war relics and still dishing out billions in damage to Ukraine for the last three years.Meanwhile Ukraine flies twenty home made drones out of the back of lorries and wipes out billions of rubles worth of aircraft.
We're a Jurassic joke, totally stuck in our ways, utterly incapable of keeping with the reality of modern warfare, wedded to things like billion pound aircraft and unreliable ships to carry them.
Ukraine pulled off an operation the Israeli's would be proud of, but the day to day war is still bullets, ditches, shells and dying in mud. To listen to your POV, you'd think the Ukrainians had no need for Storm Shadow, Javelin, our intelligence or bog standard ammo, they just needed some kids with drones.
Truth is a jet/ frigate/ submarine is still a deadly weapon that can deny entire areas. Planes didn't become obsolete just because the SAS blew some up in the Falklands 45 years ago, nor did ships being sunk in harbour by special ops or at sea by subs make them worthless post WWII.
Here's a good vid on US troops training with Finnish conscripts. There's drones, IR, etc. But there's also just plain hiding, guns, radio. The training mission is ended by an old F-18.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Msfrit12u0M&t=...
Edited by glazbagun on Monday 2nd June 02:10
Fusion777 said:
Seems like (rightly), there's more of a concerted effort this time than usual to increase stocks and capability. 6 new factories creating 1,800 UK jobs is great news.
Very interested also to hear the detail behind us looking to buy aircraft capable of carrying tactical nuclear weapons. The F35 can carry the B61 bomb, though obviously it's an American weapon- so wonder if the announcement is related to this? I can't see us buying B1Bs or B52s!
WE177 is the same size as B61, I'm sure Aldermaston could dust off the blueprints and make some new ones that will fit the F35 weapons bay.Very interested also to hear the detail behind us looking to buy aircraft capable of carrying tactical nuclear weapons. The F35 can carry the B61 bomb, though obviously it's an American weapon- so wonder if the announcement is related to this? I can't see us buying B1Bs or B52s!
IanH755 said:
I would suggest that this announcement virtually confirms that we'll be buy the F-35A model (conventional take-off version, different to the B model "jump-jet version we already have) and that we'll also be joining the NATO/US DCA (Dual Capable Aircraft) programme.
DCA is where the US "loans" a certain number of B-61 free-fall nukes between 7 NATO members (currently Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, the United States themselves, Turkey, and finally Greece) for when the poop hits the fans, so the US looks after them, stores, maintains them etc but the other nations have to train on how to drop them "once" the US gives them out at a time of full scale nuclear war.
Its benefits are that "we get nukes" to add to our Trident weapons to increase redundancy, less costs involved as we don't need to make/store etc the weapons, but as a potential negative, we're also extremely reliant on the US and its ever fickle politics to maintain the programme.
However, F-35A models will be cool, allowing the RN to finally get the B model to keep on their Carrier and the RAF to get the A model with its advantages over the B model - I just wonder if that is what will happen, or will we sill try to bodge two completely different ways of working (RN vs RAF) as we currently are which benefits no-one really in my experience.
Thanks for the post, sounds like a route we may go down. DCA is where the US "loans" a certain number of B-61 free-fall nukes between 7 NATO members (currently Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, the United States themselves, Turkey, and finally Greece) for when the poop hits the fans, so the US looks after them, stores, maintains them etc but the other nations have to train on how to drop them "once" the US gives them out at a time of full scale nuclear war.
Its benefits are that "we get nukes" to add to our Trident weapons to increase redundancy, less costs involved as we don't need to make/store etc the weapons, but as a potential negative, we're also extremely reliant on the US and its ever fickle politics to maintain the programme.
However, F-35A models will be cool, allowing the RN to finally get the B model to keep on their Carrier and the RAF to get the A model with its advantages over the B model - I just wonder if that is what will happen, or will we sill try to bodge two completely different ways of working (RN vs RAF) as we currently are which benefits no-one really in my experience.
“Up to” 12 nuclear powered, conventionally armed attack subs announced too, along with a £15bn investment in warheads. Hopefully more detail this morning.
Fusion777 said:
IanH755 said:
I would suggest that this announcement virtually confirms that we'll be buy the F-35A model (conventional take-off version, different to the B model "jump-jet version we already have) and that we'll also be joining the NATO/US DCA (Dual Capable Aircraft) programme.
DCA is where the US "loans" a certain number of B-61 free-fall nukes between 7 NATO members (currently Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, the United States themselves, Turkey, and finally Greece) for when the poop hits the fans, so the US looks after them, stores, maintains them etc but the other nations have to train on how to drop them "once" the US gives them out at a time of full scale nuclear war.
Its benefits are that "we get nukes" to add to our Trident weapons to increase redundancy, less costs involved as we don't need to make/store etc the weapons, but as a potential negative, we're also extremely reliant on the US and its ever fickle politics to maintain the programme.
However, F-35A models will be cool, allowing the RN to finally get the B model to keep on their Carrier and the RAF to get the A model with its advantages over the B model - I just wonder if that is what will happen, or will we sill try to bodge two completely different ways of working (RN vs RAF) as we currently are which benefits no-one really in my experience.
Thanks for the post, sounds like a route we may go down. DCA is where the US "loans" a certain number of B-61 free-fall nukes between 7 NATO members (currently Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, the United States themselves, Turkey, and finally Greece) for when the poop hits the fans, so the US looks after them, stores, maintains them etc but the other nations have to train on how to drop them "once" the US gives them out at a time of full scale nuclear war.
Its benefits are that "we get nukes" to add to our Trident weapons to increase redundancy, less costs involved as we don't need to make/store etc the weapons, but as a potential negative, we're also extremely reliant on the US and its ever fickle politics to maintain the programme.
However, F-35A models will be cool, allowing the RN to finally get the B model to keep on their Carrier and the RAF to get the A model with its advantages over the B model - I just wonder if that is what will happen, or will we sill try to bodge two completely different ways of working (RN vs RAF) as we currently are which benefits no-one really in my experience.
Up to 12 nuclear powered, conventionally armed attack subs announced too, along with a £15bn investment in warheads. Hopefully more detail this morning.
The Ministry of Defence says building up to 12 new attack submarines "will support 30,000 highly skilled jobs into the 2030s as well as 30,000 apprenticeships and 14,000 graduate roles across the next 10 years".
The prime minister is also expected to confirm a £15bn investment in the UK's existing nuclear warhead programme.
The prime minister is also expected to confirm a £15bn investment in the UK's existing nuclear warhead programme.
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