The UK Welfare System
Discussion
The welfare system is under the spotlight right now with disability benefits costing £65 billion a year now and expected to reach £100 billion!! in just 4 years.
Whilst hating the current government, the fact they are looking to reduce this can only be a good thing. The problem with our welfare system is it satisfies no one.
For genuinely disabled who need support in all aspects of life, they don't seem to get enough to meet their needs.
For working people who lose jobs or suffer ill health preventing them from work, the payments are miserly and take no account of their cost of living or their contribution to the system.
For the work shy it is easy to play and make a career of playing the system.
Many that take out have paid nothing in.
As with everything else we have no control over population numbers so more and more claim hence the terrifying forecast cost of welfare in the near future.
Benefits are treated as "income" when they are not, they are an allowance.
Wes Streeting has challenged the "mental elf" brigade, the new bad backs of society.
So how do they turn it around?
Population count is an issue in its own right.
We must incentivise work to make it pay so should be swapping "in work benefits" (which are utterly ridiculous) for tax reductions to remove state dependency.
Stop cash payments to recipients to ensure it is spent on essentials not on a way of life?
There must be a better way to triage the system to separate the deserving from the underserving to make it fair for those genuinely in need and to consider what prevents people from working and what doesn't.
Should means testing apply to your family outgoings no matter what so wealthy people losing their jobs don't suddenly end up bankrupt to boot?
Hypothetically, if you shook the tree by removing all benefits from everyone, it would be interesting to see who would suddenly become perfectly capable of working so how do we shake that tree?
How else do we resolve it?
Whilst hating the current government, the fact they are looking to reduce this can only be a good thing. The problem with our welfare system is it satisfies no one.
For genuinely disabled who need support in all aspects of life, they don't seem to get enough to meet their needs.
For working people who lose jobs or suffer ill health preventing them from work, the payments are miserly and take no account of their cost of living or their contribution to the system.
For the work shy it is easy to play and make a career of playing the system.
Many that take out have paid nothing in.
As with everything else we have no control over population numbers so more and more claim hence the terrifying forecast cost of welfare in the near future.
Benefits are treated as "income" when they are not, they are an allowance.
Wes Streeting has challenged the "mental elf" brigade, the new bad backs of society.
So how do they turn it around?
Population count is an issue in its own right.
We must incentivise work to make it pay so should be swapping "in work benefits" (which are utterly ridiculous) for tax reductions to remove state dependency.
Stop cash payments to recipients to ensure it is spent on essentials not on a way of life?
There must be a better way to triage the system to separate the deserving from the underserving to make it fair for those genuinely in need and to consider what prevents people from working and what doesn't.
Should means testing apply to your family outgoings no matter what so wealthy people losing their jobs don't suddenly end up bankrupt to boot?
Hypothetically, if you shook the tree by removing all benefits from everyone, it would be interesting to see who would suddenly become perfectly capable of working so how do we shake that tree?
How else do we resolve it?
My wife has Cancer. She has worked most of her working life, and paid National Insurance etc. She now receives SSP only, which is much less than her normal income. I earn quite well so we can cope with tightening our belt, but a small PIP payment, which is the only benefit she is entitled to actually helps.
It's only the last few years that my earnings have increased to the level where losing her income would not have been a huge problem.
Ultimately - by the time the rules are changed, it won't be a problem for us. But, I do think it's important to realise that while these are big numbers on a spreadsheet, they represent a large impact on individuals, who are often going through some sort of crisis.
What's the right decision? Don't know and I'm glad to not be making it!
It's only the last few years that my earnings have increased to the level where losing her income would not have been a huge problem.
Ultimately - by the time the rules are changed, it won't be a problem for us. But, I do think it's important to realise that while these are big numbers on a spreadsheet, they represent a large impact on individuals, who are often going through some sort of crisis.
What's the right decision? Don't know and I'm glad to not be making it!
surveyor said:
My wife has Cancer. She has worked most of her working life, and paid National Insurance etc. She now receives SSP only, which is much less than her normal income. I earn quite well so we can cope with tightening our belt, but a small PIP payment, which is the only benefit she is entitled to actually helps.
It's only the last few years that my earnings have increased to the level where losing her income would not have been a huge problem.
Ultimately - by the time the rules are changed, it won't be a problem for us. But, I do think it's important to realise that while these are big numbers on a spreadsheet, they represent a large impact on individuals, who are often going through some sort of crisis.
What's the right decision? Don't know and I'm glad to not be making it!
Sorry to hear that. It is a good example though of how someone who has pumped in a lot receives very little when in proper need. Luckily your earnings help, but if you didn't have that then that would be a whole different matter. Good luck to you both, I hope you beat it.It's only the last few years that my earnings have increased to the level where losing her income would not have been a huge problem.
Ultimately - by the time the rules are changed, it won't be a problem for us. But, I do think it's important to realise that while these are big numbers on a spreadsheet, they represent a large impact on individuals, who are often going through some sort of crisis.
What's the right decision? Don't know and I'm glad to not be making it!
I think it was the Triggernomentry podcast (of all things) that I caught the other day where they had Fraser Nelson is it? And he was explaining how the system actually seems to trap people in it once they're there. He said he'd interviewed many people who have a desire to get on and get off benefits but the system really kinda pushes back on them.
I don't know what the answer is.
I don't know what the answer is.
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: I've never fully understood why an alternative to "cash" hasn't been looked at.
I don't want to say literally a pre-loaded card but something along those lines.
That would be a sensible way forward. Although the scammers will find a work around, especially if certain items like booze, fags and vapes were blocked. I don't want to say literally a pre-loaded card but something along those lines.
Plus those on long term benefits who are physically able should be encouraged to volunteer for community work.
And maybe cap benefits at minimum wage. Brother in law has been scamming they system for years. He has "anxiety". He is also helped by the bank of Mum. No incentive to work as his benefits pay out more than minimum wage.
Tom8 said:
surveyor said:
My wife has Cancer. She has worked most of her working life, and paid National Insurance etc. She now receives SSP only, which is much less than her normal income. I earn quite well so we can cope with tightening our belt, but a small PIP payment, which is the only benefit she is entitled to actually helps.
It's only the last few years that my earnings have increased to the level where losing her income would not have been a huge problem.
Ultimately - by the time the rules are changed, it won't be a problem for us. But, I do think it's important to realise that while these are big numbers on a spreadsheet, they represent a large impact on individuals, who are often going through some sort of crisis.
What's the right decision? Don't know and I'm glad to not be making it!
Sorry to hear that. It is a good example though of how someone who has pumped in a lot receives very little when in proper need. Luckily your earnings help, but if you didn't have that then that would be a whole different matter. Good luck to you both, I hope you beat it.It's only the last few years that my earnings have increased to the level where losing her income would not have been a huge problem.
Ultimately - by the time the rules are changed, it won't be a problem for us. But, I do think it's important to realise that while these are big numbers on a spreadsheet, they represent a large impact on individuals, who are often going through some sort of crisis.
What's the right decision? Don't know and I'm glad to not be making it!
surveyor said:
My wife has Cancer. She has worked most of her working life, and paid National Insurance etc. She now receives SSP only, which is much less than her normal income. I earn quite well so we can cope with tightening our belt, but a small PIP payment, which is the only benefit she is entitled to actually helps.
It's only the last few years that my earnings have increased to the level where losing her income would not have been a huge problem.
Ultimately - by the time the rules are changed, it won't be a problem for us. But, I do think it's important to realise that while these are big numbers on a spreadsheet, they represent a large impact on individuals, who are often going through some sort of crisis.
What's the right decision? Don't know and I'm glad to not be making it!
Sorry to hear about your wife, I wish you all wellIt's only the last few years that my earnings have increased to the level where losing her income would not have been a huge problem.
Ultimately - by the time the rules are changed, it won't be a problem for us. But, I do think it's important to realise that while these are big numbers on a spreadsheet, they represent a large impact on individuals, who are often going through some sort of crisis.
What's the right decision? Don't know and I'm glad to not be making it!
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I've never fully understood why an alternative to "cash" hasn't been looked at.
I don't want to say literally a pre-loaded card but something along those lines.
It has been mentioned to change PIPO to some kind of voucher scheme but firstly that would then treat all PIP claimants as second class citizens, why not do it for universal credit as well?I don't want to say literally a pre-loaded card but something along those lines.
But my main issue is that different people use PIP in different ways, some use it for a motability vehicle, others fund their own private vehicles whilst some use it for taxis.
How would vouchers work for me paying a garage for a service on my car that i fund with my PIP? or would i have to go to an approved garage that accepts these vouchers?
It also then creates a black market in people selling a £100 voucher for say £70 cash
Lots of issues as many would cost just as much to implement and maintain as they would look to save.
Housing benefit traps people. Wife’s mate is single mum of 2. Council pays her rent on 2 bed flat. £1700 PM. She works 16hrs per week as dr receptionist. They want her to do more hours. She can’t as she’d lose that £1700. Which is considerably more than she’d earn.
The amount of years you’ve worked, low or high pay, should be considered as to getting some state assistance if you lose your job. Seems if you have savings/home, the state doesn’t want to give you anything if you fall on hard times.
Welfare state should be a safety net. Not a hammock.
The amount of years you’ve worked, low or high pay, should be considered as to getting some state assistance if you lose your job. Seems if you have savings/home, the state doesn’t want to give you anything if you fall on hard times.
Welfare state should be a safety net. Not a hammock.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I've never fully understood why an alternative to "cash" hasn't been looked at.
I don't want to say literally a pre-loaded card but something along those lines.
Ditto Stewie. (Though I was certain you'd poo pooed these suggestions when blue rosettes were in power I don't want to say literally a pre-loaded card but something along those lines.
). I'd go even further...why a preloaded card? Direct provision of accommodation, basic utilities, food, clothing etc if it's required. If it's not, happy days. No provision.
Someone will say "blackmarket". There are ways to kill that dead.
Maybe some sort of ramp into that where cash/cards are provided for say 6mths for those who have lost jobs etc...
But...
There's already the usual caterwauling about how unfair it all is. Until those moaning come up with a workable solution, we are f
ked. But it's good to see that even the Labour leadership are realising that the system we have now serves nobody, and those most in need are suffering the most.
highway said:
Housing benefit traps people. Wife’s mate is single mum of 2. Council pays her rent on 2 bed flat. £1700 PM. She works 16hrs per week as dr receptionist. They want her to do more hours. She can’t as she’d lose that £1700. Which is considerably more than she’d earn.
The amount of years you’ve worked, low or high pay, should be considered as to getting some state assistance if you lose your job. Seems if you have savings/home, the state doesn’t want to give you anything if you fall on hard times.
Welfare state should be a safety net. Not a hammock.
You say she can't work more hours. The question is, does she WANT to? If not, then she's on a winner. Free housing, a little P/T job for half-decent pocket money, and still gets all of her time with the kids. £1700 must be a nice place - my mortgage is only a grand a month and my place is more than a single mother (+2) needs (we have 4 kids). The amount of years you’ve worked, low or high pay, should be considered as to getting some state assistance if you lose your job. Seems if you have savings/home, the state doesn’t want to give you anything if you fall on hard times.
Welfare state should be a safety net. Not a hammock.
As said above, a cash cow.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I've never fully understood why an alternative to "cash" hasn't been looked at.
I don't want to say literally a pre-loaded card but something along those lines.
The amount of admin/bureaucracy involved would make it inefficient. I don't want to say literally a pre-loaded card but something along those lines.
It's also relatively easy to circumvent - go down to the corner shop and use your pre-loaded card to stock up on B&H and Stella and the shopkeeper puts it through as "Essential basics"
IME, some people know how to work the system and spoil it for those that can't / won't. I know a family that absolutely milk it and get stupid amounts of money, enough for a couple to save £1k a month, have holidays in the US, new car every couple of years, shop at M&S. They own their own house, so no mortgage / rent to pay, have free car tax due to a "disability" among other benefits. One child has never worked, and never will. Another got a job, but the parents are already lining up various "illnesses" to get a PIP claim going. I'm sure this isn't the norm, but it is annoying when the rest of us work our tits off to make ends meet.
Murph7355 said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I've never fully understood why an alternative to "cash" hasn't been looked at.
I don't want to say literally a pre-loaded card but something along those lines.
Ditto Stewie. (Though I was certain you'd poo pooed these suggestions when blue rosettes were in power I don't want to say literally a pre-loaded card but something along those lines.
). I'd go even further...why a preloaded card? Direct provision of accommodation, basic utilities, food, clothing etc if it's required. If it's not, happy days. No provision.
Someone will say "blackmarket". There are ways to kill that dead.
Maybe some sort of ramp into that where cash/cards are provided for say 6mths for those who have lost jobs etc...
But...
There's already the usual caterwauling about how unfair it all is. Until those moaning come up with a workable solution, we are f
ked. But it's good to see that even the Labour leadership are realising that the system we have now serves nobody, and those most in need are suffering the most.
Fully take on board the points and concerns raised though about how difficult it might make things like car servicing or taxis or anything that strays too much to being "unapproved" spend.
Can't help but think there must be some economies of scale that aren't being looked at but I'm also sure there will be some difficulties.
Ladiiiies aaaand gentlemen!
A warm welcome to your weekly punching down thread.
Designer iPhones/Latest trainers/RR Sport on Mobility, amirite?
The west is awash with more wealth than in its entire history, but we are permitting it to be syphoned off into the pockets of a tiny percentage of society.
How about forcing employers to pay wages attractive enough for those of lowest income to choose work over benefits?
Somewhere, a billionaire is hosing our cash into some carribean st-hole tax shelter while we lose our st because a single-mother has spent some benefits on a pack of fags.
A warm welcome to your weekly punching down thread.
Designer iPhones/Latest trainers/RR Sport on Mobility, amirite?
The west is awash with more wealth than in its entire history, but we are permitting it to be syphoned off into the pockets of a tiny percentage of society.
How about forcing employers to pay wages attractive enough for those of lowest income to choose work over benefits?
Somewhere, a billionaire is hosing our cash into some carribean s
t-hole tax shelter while we lose our st because a single-mother has spent some benefits on a pack of fags.bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I've never fully understood why an alternative to "cash" hasn't been looked at.
I don't want to say literally a pre-loaded card but something along those lines.
I agree. You can control card accounts such as Go Henry for kids meaning only certain things can be bought using it. Why not for adults?I don't want to say literally a pre-loaded card but something along those lines.
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