Discussion
With the news that America is retreating into its shell and only want so flog arms to Europe, is it time for europe to stand on its own and create (as Zelensky has suggested) a European fighting force to protect itself? Investing in its own weapons manufacturing and excluding the US in the long term.
SlimJim16v said:
NATO - its European members just need to spend what they should, plus there's a lot to catch up on.
Yup. Like it or not the Yanks are the only nation with a big enough stick. If we pay up Trump will calm down. Can you imagine a European army run by bureaucrats from Brussels?
In the real world though, what does trump think the reaction will be?
There's some truth in saying having 18 countries negotiating the Ukraine peace deal would make it harder to achieve.
But it's also obtuse to maintain Europe doesn't have a stake in the outcome.
And naive to assume the USA will be doing anything but putting it's interests front and centre at the detriment of Europes.
Obviously Europe (geographic) can't ever reconstruct it's arms industry or nuclear research to take back the prowess it once had. A true 5% of GDP could probably produce some serious kit though - after all look at what Russia can muster with a far smaller economy.
A proper "army" is unworkable. I think there is some merit in Europe considering a mechanism about how it can develop foreign policy. After all, the military is just a tool used to achieve foreign policy objectives (ok and domestic ones if you're invaded)
It would be a subset of NATO I guess. Maybe persuade
Ireland and Austria to show up (Malta and cypress can just bring the beers)
Turkey would be interesting...but that's probably a different conversation.
I would worry about the effectiveness of the "EU" and the commission to manage it - a body that has never had accounts signed off. It would have to report to the heads of state directly imo.
But as another thread said recently, trident are American, and the UK could not operate a nuclear deterrent without the USA's blessing.
Would the USA be enough of an arse to use that as a bargaining chip? I reckon they might.
There's some truth in saying having 18 countries negotiating the Ukraine peace deal would make it harder to achieve.
But it's also obtuse to maintain Europe doesn't have a stake in the outcome.
And naive to assume the USA will be doing anything but putting it's interests front and centre at the detriment of Europes.
Obviously Europe (geographic) can't ever reconstruct it's arms industry or nuclear research to take back the prowess it once had. A true 5% of GDP could probably produce some serious kit though - after all look at what Russia can muster with a far smaller economy.
A proper "army" is unworkable. I think there is some merit in Europe considering a mechanism about how it can develop foreign policy. After all, the military is just a tool used to achieve foreign policy objectives (ok and domestic ones if you're invaded)
It would be a subset of NATO I guess. Maybe persuade
Ireland and Austria to show up (Malta and cypress can just bring the beers)
Turkey would be interesting...but that's probably a different conversation.
I would worry about the effectiveness of the "EU" and the commission to manage it - a body that has never had accounts signed off. It would have to report to the heads of state directly imo.
But as another thread said recently, trident are American, and the UK could not operate a nuclear deterrent without the USA's blessing.
Would the USA be enough of an arse to use that as a bargaining chip? I reckon they might.
bristolracer said:
SlimJim16v said:
NATO - its European members just need to spend what they should, plus there's a lot to catch up on.
Yup. Like it or not the Yanks are the only nation with a big enough stick. If we pay up Trump will calm down. Can you imagine a European army run by bureaucrats from Brussels?
EU Army ?
Don't make me laugh
27 countries argue for years over the shape of banana's so you expect them to agree to a common army and send them to war ?
There'll be a lot of huffing and puffing and sticking out of chests with grand statements in Brussels, but it will amount to the sum total of feck all
Don't make me laugh
27 countries argue for years over the shape of banana's so you expect them to agree to a common army and send them to war ?
There'll be a lot of huffing and puffing and sticking out of chests with grand statements in Brussels, but it will amount to the sum total of feck all
Earthdweller said:
EU Army ?
Don't make me laugh
27 countries argue for years over the shape of banana's so you expect them to agree to a common army and send them to war ?
There'll be a lot of huffing and puffing and sticking out of chests with grand statements in Brussels, but it will amount to the sum total of feck all
About sums it up. Dooomed I tell you. Don't make me laugh
27 countries argue for years over the shape of banana's so you expect them to agree to a common army and send them to war ?
There'll be a lot of huffing and puffing and sticking out of chests with grand statements in Brussels, but it will amount to the sum total of feck all
(but sadly true)You need energy security first.
"Data collected by commodities intelligence firm Kpler and analyzed by POLITICO reveals that in the first 15 days of 2025, the European Union's 27 countries imported 837,300 metric tons of liquefied natural gas from Russia.
That marks a record high, up from the 760,100 tons brought in during the same period last year, fueling concerns that Western nations aren't doing enough to squeeze Russian funds as Moscow's war enters its fourth year."
https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-devouring-russi...
"Data collected by commodities intelligence firm Kpler and analyzed by POLITICO reveals that in the first 15 days of 2025, the European Union's 27 countries imported 837,300 metric tons of liquefied natural gas from Russia.
That marks a record high, up from the 760,100 tons brought in during the same period last year, fueling concerns that Western nations aren't doing enough to squeeze Russian funds as Moscow's war enters its fourth year."
https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-devouring-russi...
I'm not to worried about the Russians to be honest apart from the data cable espionage thats going on , It's a depleting force ..When they are sending back injured troops on crutches to fight , Donkeys to move ammo around .. Dragging out WW11 guns and tanks ... You get the Picture . ... Plus who's going to buy their military equipment now knowing that it does not really perform .
FourWheelDrift said:
The USA doesn't spend NATO's recommended 5% of GDP either, it only does 3.4% so they can't talk.
Biggest NATO spender is Poland 3.8%
Quantity has a quality of it's own as someone once said. The absolute amount of spend on equipment has a rather greater effect than a large % of a much smaller amount. The us spending 3.4% has a far greater impact on their capabilities compared to someone like Greece or Poland with a much smaller starting point.Biggest NATO spender is Poland 3.8%
And as the US is the only reason why the whole NATO thing has any teeth, they clearly can talk.
FourWheelDrift said:
SlimJim16v said:
NATO - its European members just need to spend what they should, plus there's a lot to catch up on.
The USA doesn't spend NATO's recommended 5% of GDP either, it only does 3.4% so they can't talk.Biggest NATO spender is Poland 3.8%
--
Maybe it's Trump 4D chess, pull off support, make Europe reconsider its energy policy disaster and make them rethink their industrial offshoring ideas - this will increase GDP [so contributions go up in real terms] and save the people of Europe from their slow ignominious death. 'A good enemy is a good friend' etc.
Edited by andy_s on Saturday 15th February 21:10
Ian Geary said:
But as another thread said recently, trident are American, and the UK could not operate a nuclear deterrent without the USA's blessing.
Would the USA be enough of an arse to use that as a bargaining chip? I reckon they might.
Given that one of the reasons for what became the EU was Germany6shock at how the US shafted us over Suez, I 100% think they would also do it over Trident. I think our intelligence community is probably the main thing they see in us. That and a political meatshield for pushing through foreign invasions.Would the USA be enough of an arse to use that as a bargaining chip? I reckon they might.
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