Heathrow 3rd Runway
Discussion
https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/heathrow-b...
I have no idea why but the 3rd runway at Heathrow popped into my head randomly the other day and I wondered what the hell happened to the plans for it. I presumed it had be thoroughly shot down but, no, seems like Heathrow had gone back to the drawing board and rehashed the plans. Now just waiting on a "clear direction" from Government - which about as likely as pigs taking flight - so clearly the appetite is there and they believe the ROI is there.
But what do we think? is it actually needed?
If it is, do you think it would go the way of HS2 and just cost way too much and take far too long?
I have no idea why but the 3rd runway at Heathrow popped into my head randomly the other day and I wondered what the hell happened to the plans for it. I presumed it had be thoroughly shot down but, no, seems like Heathrow had gone back to the drawing board and rehashed the plans. Now just waiting on a "clear direction" from Government - which about as likely as pigs taking flight - so clearly the appetite is there and they believe the ROI is there.
But what do we think? is it actually needed?
If it is, do you think it would go the way of HS2 and just cost way too much and take far too long?
What’s actually needed is a second runway at Gatwick.
If I recall correctly when the government determined the additional runway should be at Heathrow the rate of return on the investment was significantly smaller at Heathrow than Gatwick. So the runway at Gatwick would have paid for itself sooner but the overall return at Heathrow was higher.
Gatwick are pressing ahead with plans it appears https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/a...
If I recall correctly when the government determined the additional runway should be at Heathrow the rate of return on the investment was significantly smaller at Heathrow than Gatwick. So the runway at Gatwick would have paid for itself sooner but the overall return at Heathrow was higher.
Gatwick are pressing ahead with plans it appears https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/a...
Chrisgr31 said:
What’s actually needed is a second runway at Gatwick.
If I recall correctly when the government determined the additional runway should be at Heathrow the rate of return on the investment was significantly smaller at Heathrow than Gatwick. So the runway at Gatwick would have paid for itself sooner but the overall return at Heathrow was higher.
Gatwick are pressing ahead with plans it appears https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/a...
Tbh, we need both. Heathrow has proven itself to be massively efficient in it's use of runway space, but we're losing ground massively against places like Schiphol as the European Hub of the world.If I recall correctly when the government determined the additional runway should be at Heathrow the rate of return on the investment was significantly smaller at Heathrow than Gatwick. So the runway at Gatwick would have paid for itself sooner but the overall return at Heathrow was higher.
Gatwick are pressing ahead with plans it appears https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/a...
London has a huge appeal in general, and there's a lot of wider benefit in people choosing to transit through there - there's a much higher percentage of those choosing a 24-48hr layover to get into Town compared to Schiphol or the other European major airports iirc.
Sway said:
Tbh, we need both. Heathrow has proven itself to be massively efficient in it's use of runway space, but we're losing ground massively against places like Schiphol as the European Hub of the world.
London has a huge appeal in general, and there's a lot of wider benefit in people choosing to transit through there - there's a much higher percentage of those choosing a 24-48hr layover to get into Town compared to Schiphol or the other European major airports iirc.
Indeed. There may be a requirement for Gatwick expansion, but it's not much use for the majority of the UK. Heathrow is less than 60 minutes journey for nearly 12 million people, and I would think a good chunk more can get there within 2 hours. Gatwick really only serves a portion of London and the surrounding areas of the South East.London has a huge appeal in general, and there's a lot of wider benefit in people choosing to transit through there - there's a much higher percentage of those choosing a 24-48hr layover to get into Town compared to Schiphol or the other European major airports iirc.
The hub aspect is also hampered by the much higher APD rates in the UK too. But I can't see that changing as it won't look good on the environmental aspect.
Brimingham should become the biggest airport in the country, alongside a High Speed rail line up the entire spine of the country, with branches to major conurbations. Maybe we could call it HS2.
Oh hang on.
Heathrow and the surrounding area are over developed and over crowded and over traffic jammed already. We need to stop making it worse and think nationally.
Oh hang on.
Heathrow and the surrounding area are over developed and over crowded and over traffic jammed already. We need to stop making it worse and think nationally.
Chrisgr31 said:
What’s actually needed is a second runway at Gatwick.
If I recall correctly when the government determined the additional runway should be at Heathrow the rate of return on the investment was significantly smaller at Heathrow than Gatwick. So the runway at Gatwick would have paid for itself sooner but the overall return at Heathrow was higher.
Gatwick are pressing ahead with plans it appears https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/a...
I'm perplexed that Gatwick's solution is to move the unused north runway 12m further north, as that will be logistically more complicated to build compared to moves ops onto the north runway, and then move the south runway 12m further south which would be logistically easier to build, in terms of impact of ops.If I recall correctly when the government determined the additional runway should be at Heathrow the rate of return on the investment was significantly smaller at Heathrow than Gatwick. So the runway at Gatwick would have paid for itself sooner but the overall return at Heathrow was higher.
Gatwick are pressing ahead with plans it appears https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/a...
Will have to ask around to find out the reason.
As for Heathrow, rumour is they have internally already deemed 3rd runway won't ever happen, and the internal team that has been involved with it still, has already been, or is currently being wound up.
Skodillac said:
Brimingham should become the biggest airport in the country, alongside a High Speed rail line up the entire spine of the country, with branches to major conurbations. Maybe we could call it HS2.
Oh hang on.
Heathrow and the surrounding area are over developed and over crowded and over traffic jammed already. We need to stop making it worse and think nationally.
Yup and for all those obsessed with travelling into London (apparently this is quite a big thing) just rename Brum airport as London North. Oh hang on.
Heathrow and the surrounding area are over developed and over crowded and over traffic jammed already. We need to stop making it worse and think nationally.
If HS2 works properly the time into central London is about the same as the train from Gatwick I think.
5 In a Row said:
Skodillac said:
Brimingham should become the biggest airport in the country, alongside a High Speed rail line up the entire spine of the country, with branches to major conurbations. Maybe we could call it HS2.
Oh hang on.
Heathrow and the surrounding area are over developed and over crowded and over traffic jammed already. We need to stop making it worse and think nationally.
Yup and for all those obsessed with travelling into London (apparently this is quite a big thing) just rename Brum airport as London North. Oh hang on.
Heathrow and the surrounding area are over developed and over crowded and over traffic jammed already. We need to stop making it worse and think nationally.
If HS2 works properly the time into central London is about the same as the train from Gatwick I think.
Skodillac said:
Brimingham should become the biggest airport in the country, alongside a High Speed rail line up the entire spine of the country, with branches to major conurbations. Maybe we could call it HS2.
Oh hang on.
Heathrow and the surrounding area are over developed and over crowded and over traffic jammed already. We need to stop making it worse and think nationally.
You'd have to move Birmingham Airport. There's really not much space available to expand it in the current location.Oh hang on.
Heathrow and the surrounding area are over developed and over crowded and over traffic jammed already. We need to stop making it worse and think nationally.
What truly amazes me is that in the less than half of the time that the UK has spent talking about expanding LHR, both Amsterdam and Frankfurt have planned, built, and opened additional runways.
But then, GWR built the line from London to Bristol in 6 years, starting in 1835. (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Western_Railwa...)
So the Victorians could build railways faster than we can build HS2, and both the Dutch & Germans can build new runways in less time than we spend talking about them.....
Says it all really.
Magnum 475 said:
You'd have to move Birmingham Airport. There's really not much space available to expand it in the current location.
Thing is, the issue at Heathrow for a third runway is similar, and yet the planners of that were fine with wiping out a couple of entire villages (Harmondsworth, Sipson) to go under the new runway. Using a similar "sod the residents" approach, an extra runway could go in at Birmingham to the west of the existing one, similar amounts of houses would have to be demolished to make way for it as at Heathrow. Or, move it like you say, perhaps to the triangle between the A423 and the A46, south of Hampden in Arden and north of Barston, it's all golf courses and fields there.Coventry airport could be another candidate, e.g. use the land currently occupied by the Middlemarch Industrial estate.
I don't think Heathrow should have any expansion at all until they can run the current lounges, car parks and facilities properly. They can't even keep them clean. It's an embarrassment coming back to Heathrow from almost any other country.
Gatwick does a better job, just. Maybe it's a British thing ?
Gatwick does a better job, just. Maybe it's a British thing ?
Magnum 475 said:
Skodillac said:
Brimingham should become the biggest airport in the country, alongside a High Speed rail line up the entire spine of the country, with branches to major conurbations. Maybe we could call it HS2.
Oh hang on.
Heathrow and the surrounding area are over developed and over crowded and over traffic jammed already. We need to stop making it worse and think nationally.
You'd have to move Birmingham Airport. There's really not much space available to expand it in the current location.Oh hang on.
Heathrow and the surrounding area are over developed and over crowded and over traffic jammed already. We need to stop making it worse and think nationally.
aeropilot said:
Magnum 475 said:
Skodillac said:
Brimingham should become the biggest airport in the country, alongside a High Speed rail line up the entire spine of the country, with branches to major conurbations. Maybe we could call it HS2.
Oh hang on.
Heathrow and the surrounding area are over developed and over crowded and over traffic jammed already. We need to stop making it worse and think nationally.
You'd have to move Birmingham Airport. There's really not much space available to expand it in the current location.Oh hang on.
Heathrow and the surrounding area are over developed and over crowded and over traffic jammed already. We need to stop making it worse and think nationally.
aeropilot said:
Not just that, as Birmingham runway orientation of 33/15 is about the worst choice for prevailing wind direction in the UK, so building another runway in the airports current location is pretty much a waste of time.
This does make for a more 'sporting' approach at times. Combined with the fact that the runway has more dips than the most roller coasters, landing can be entertaining 
Skodillac said:
Brimingham should become the biggest airport in the country,
No it shouldn't. A large proportion of the people landing in London, tourists & business people, are London bound. It's far more convenient for people coming from the USA for transiting into Europe. Plus London has 8m people. Birmingham has 1m, maybe less than that.TwigtheWonderkid said:
Skodillac said:
Brimingham should become the biggest airport in the country,
No it shouldn't. A large proportion of the people landing in London, tourists & business people, are London bound. It's far more convenient for people coming from the USA for transiting into Europe. Plus London has 8m people. Birmingham has 1m, maybe less than that.We also have to remember the aim here. It's not about (necessarily) UK travellers. It's about fighting to be the leading European regional Hub, acting as a focal point for transfers, etc.
Sway said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Skodillac said:
Brimingham should become the biggest airport in the country,
No it shouldn't. A large proportion of the people landing in London, tourists & business people, are London bound. It's far more convenient for people coming from the USA for transiting into Europe. Plus London has 8m people. Birmingham has 1m, maybe less than that.We also have to remember the aim here. It's not about (necessarily) UK travellers. It's about fighting to be the leading European regional Hub, acting as a focal point for transfers, etc.
A point missed by many, including many politicians.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Skodillac said:
Brimingham should become the biggest airport in the country,
No it shouldn't. A large proportion of the people landing in London, tourists & business people, are London bound. It's far more convenient for people coming from the USA for transiting into Europe. Plus London has 8m people. Birmingham has 1m, maybe less than that.
tes where they land to transit to another plane from the same airport.This isn't anti-Londonism, which is what I think you're getting at. I live 25 miles from LHR and find it the most convenient airport to use. But expanding it would be inappropriate in many ways. And expanding Gatwick or Stansted would not be much benefit to many areas beyond London.
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