NHS Jobs - No Wonder They’re in a Mess

NHS Jobs - No Wonder They’re in a Mess

Author
Discussion

bad company

Original Poster:

19,471 posts

273 months

Wednesday 18th September
quotequote all
OK I found this posted by a Reform supporter on Facebook so please feel free to call it out if not genuine.

Assuming these (non) jobs are real surely the money should be spent on front line doctors and nurses?


essayer

9,623 posts

201 months

Wednesday 18th September
quotequote all
Yes, the NHS should only employ doctors and nurses. No other employees are required. It's only a small organisation, so just needs front-line staff.

bad company

Original Poster:

19,471 posts

273 months

Wednesday 18th September
quotequote all
essayer said:
Yes, the NHS should only employ doctors and nurses. No other employees are required. It's only a small organisation, so just needs front-line staff.
Very useful. Anything else to contribute?

ben5575

6,641 posts

228 months

Wednesday 18th September
quotequote all
I can only speak as somebody who established a CIC along with five recording studios in some of the most deprived areas of the north east of England, that the creative arts was a very effective way of engaging with most of the 700 or so young people who were disenfranchised/spent their lives as carers/escaping abuse/struggled with mental health that we dealt with.

I would imagine, again based on my limited experience, that the cost of the jobs and salaries in that image would be significantly less than the likely costs to the tax payer of dealing with some of the people I dealt with and hopefully 'turned around'.

Also doctors and nurses are really good at dealing with patients, not so good at ordering the soap for the operating theatre or engaging with hard to reach communities to have their health care needs dealt with at an earlier, cheaper stage.

Perhaps health care is complicated. Sorry if that isn't frothy enough for you.

Do you have anything more to contribute other than posting a picture?

Carl_VivaEspana

13,168 posts

269 months

Wednesday 18th September
quotequote all
The poster on Facebook probably doesn't understand that recovery and prevention are not in the sole domain of medically trained professionals.

If you don't work on recovery and prevention you need more nurses and doctors that you don't have the resources to employ, making the overall NHS service worse.

VeeReihenmotor6

2,341 posts

182 months

Wednesday 18th September
quotequote all
Confused, they are real jobs? Most larger organisations have a "head of comms" for example.

Are you referring to the Arts jobs specifically? Patient care is directly benefited by decent building design and style which all requires Art talents.

bad company

Original Poster:

19,471 posts

273 months

Wednesday 18th September
quotequote all
ben5575 said:
I can only speak as somebody who established a CIC along with five recording studios in some of the most deprived areas of the north east of England, that the creative arts was a very effective way of engaging with most of the 700 or so young people who were disenfranchised/spent their lives as carers/escaping abuse/struggled with mental health that we dealt with.

I would imagine, again based on my limited experience, that the cost of the jobs and salaries in that image would be significantly less than the likely costs to the tax payer of dealing with some of the people I dealt with and hopefully 'turned around'.

Also doctors and nurses are really good at dealing with patients, not so good at ordering the soap for the operating theatre or engaging with hard to reach communities to have their health care needs dealt with at an earlier, cheaper stage.

Perhaps health care is complicated. Sorry if that isn't frothy enough for you.

Do you have anything more to contribute other than posting a picture?
I’m just posing the question about how the NHS spends its money. We all know that the NHS is struggling and imo no amount of increased funding will ever be enough. We’re living longer and requiring more healthcare which is probably a major cause.

Enough non froth for you?


2xChevrons

3,534 posts

87 months

Wednesday 18th September
quotequote all
bad company said:
OK I found this posted by a Reform supporter on Facebook so please feel free to call it out if not genuine.

Assuming these (non) jobs are real surely the money should be spent on front line doctors and nurses?]
Are these 'non jobs'?

Organisational Development Faciliator:

"Using coaching and facilitation skills you will support teams delivering improvement projects across the organisation.You will support teams in making improvements to emergency and non-elective pathways.You will co-ordinate and promote wider improvement projects across the Trust and linked organisations.You will provide teams with improvement and transformation techniques including support with analytics and statistical measurements.You will support with the evaluation of improvement and help adapt approaches on a continuous basis."

Arts Coordinator:

"You'll engage with a range of art forms including visual art, literature, dance, music, crafts, new media, combined arts, circus and drama. As an arts manager or coordinator, you may also be responsible for cultural projects such as using visual arts to improve the hospital environment, encouraging staff and patients to participate in the arts, staging exhibitions or concerts by staff and patients, developing artist- , poet- or writer-in-residence programmes, running books clubs or reading aloud groups, coordinating other art forms - dance, music, crafts, new media, circus or drama, for example.Your work may also involve raising funds to support arts projects, agreeing an arts strategy and policies, working in partnership with other organisations such as other health and care agencies, voluntary sector agencies, arts organisations, local authorities and funders."

Dramatherapist:

"You'll use the healing aspects of drama and theatre to help people explore and reflect on their feelings. You'll offer people the opportunity to change by experimenting with different ways of thinking, feeling and behaving. You may use puppets, masks or stories to help their clients. Another technique is role play where clients can try out alternative behaviours and strategies. Clients learn more about their own behaviour and reactions to other people. This helps them to understand social situations and deal with them more assertively. You'll create a secure environment which helps people have some fun while building their self awareness and self confidence.You'll work with people of all ages - children, young people adults and the elderly. Your clients may have a range of difficulties such as emotional, behavioural or mental health problems, learning or physical disabilities, life-limiting conditions, neurological conditions or physical illnesses."

Chair, Patient & Public Voice Assurance Group:

"The Chair will be required to provide strong leadership for the PPVAG to enable it to fulfil its strategic purpose and to ensure effective relationships within the group and between the group and partners and stakeholders within and beyond NHS England. The chair will oversee PPVAG, chair meetings and delegate actions as necessary, facilitate contributions from members ensuring equity amongst stakeholders, provide support and guidance to all PPVAG members and pro-actively address issues and concerns as they arise, undertake an annual review for all independent PPVAG members, provide representation on behalf of the Group as and when required, including attendance at the NHS England National Commissioning Group and Delegated Commissioning Group (NCG/DCG), have responsibility for escalating key issues and concerns within NHS England, maintain pro-active relationships with a range of key stakeholders, including patients, patient groups and interested organisations, oversee the production of an Annual Report which will be presented to the NHS England NCG / DCG and maintain oversight of the Participation Framework for Specialised Commissioning."

Head of Comms & Engagement:

"Working closely with Trust leadership and senior management, the post holder will provide advice on communications and engagement activity to promote our values and services in line with an agreed communications and engagement strategy. They will also ensure our key messages are clearly articulated and provide advice to ensure the good reputation of the trust is reflected internally and externally as well as ensuring balance in any negative coverage or comment of the trust. This will mean providing advice and guidance to senior personnel on frequently complex and often delicate, high-profile or contentious issues.

The successful candidate will help to enable and hold sustainable and meaningful dialogue with diverse communities and citizens ensuring the Trust's strategy both reflects the aspirations and needs of all those it serves and who work for it and that engagement is visible and effective.

The role will also involve providing a professional media relations and issues management service on both a proactive and reactive basis. The post holder will seek opportunities to promote and enhance the Trust's reputation with all audiences. This will involve consistency of message and supporting the Director of Communications, Engagement and Fundraising in close liaison with key stakeholders in the local health and care system."

So which of these 'non jobs' isn't delivering clinical, patient, public or administrative value to the NHS?

bad company

Original Poster:

19,471 posts

273 months

Wednesday 18th September
quotequote all
VeeReihenmotor6 said:
Confused, they are real jobs? Most larger organisations have a "head of comms" for example.

Are you referring to the Arts jobs specifically? Patient care is directly benefited by decent building design and style which all requires Art talents.
I’m referring to all of the imo non jobs.

EmailAddress

13,566 posts

225 months

Wednesday 18th September
quotequote all
bad company said:
I’m just posing the question about how the NHS spends its money. We all know that the NHS is struggling and imo no amount of increased funding will ever be enough. We’re living longer and requiring more healthcare which is probably a major cause.

Enough non froth for you?
I'm just asking the questions.

Ya.

chemistry

2,448 posts

116 months

Wednesday 18th September
quotequote all
A quick check suggests that at least some of these roles are real, e.g. Drama Therapist: https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/explore-roles/all...

On the face of it, I personally can't see why the NHS needs people to "use the healing aspects of drama and theatre to help people explore and reflect on their feelings." but I think it all boils down to a question of what we want the NHS to be.

Personally I think all the NHS should be stripped back to focus on 'core' health issues (A&E, oncology, maternity, etc.) and move away from things such as drama therapy(!). We'd also need to revamp social care, as a large amount of NHS resource is tied up in bed blockers, as geriatric patients have nowhere to be discharged to. The NHS should be a safety net rather than a panacea for all ills. I'd also bring in fines for missed appointments etc.

Others think the NHS should cover everything even vaguely health related (together with the associated increases in taxes to pay for it all).

We need a national debate about it i.e. an honest discussion about whether we want an NHS that provides (say) drama therapists and are prepared to pay the taxes to support their provision. Sadly, I doin't think it will ever happen.



ukwill

9,231 posts

214 months

Wednesday 18th September
quotequote all
There are literally thousands of redundant and/or wasteful job in the NHS, amounting to tens of millions of additional expenditure.

There is absolutely no way the NHS would have the workforce it has, if it were a private enterprise.

But no politician dares to tackle this. As such we get the NHS we deserve. Meh.


bad company

Original Poster:

19,471 posts

273 months

Wednesday 18th September
quotequote all
2xChevrons said:
Are these 'non jobs'?

Organisational Development Faciliator:

"Using coaching and facilitation skills you will support teams delivering improvement projects across the organisation.You will support teams in making improvements to emergency and non-elective pathways.You will co-ordinate and promote wider improvement projects across the Trust and linked organisations.You will provide teams with improvement and transformation techniques including support with analytics and statistical measurements.You will support with the evaluation of improvement and help adapt approaches on a continuous basis."

Arts Coordinator:

"You'll engage with a range of art forms including visual art, literature, dance, music, crafts, new media, combined arts, circus and drama. As an arts manager or coordinator, you may also be responsible for cultural projects such as using visual arts to improve the hospital environment, encouraging staff and patients to participate in the arts, staging exhibitions or concerts by staff and patients, developing artist- , poet- or writer-in-residence programmes, running books clubs or reading aloud groups, coordinating other art forms - dance, music, crafts, new media, circus or drama, for example.Your work may also involve raising funds to support arts projects, agreeing an arts strategy and policies, working in partnership with other organisations such as other health and care agencies, voluntary sector agencies, arts organisations, local authorities and funders."

Dramatherapist:

"You'll use the healing aspects of drama and theatre to help people explore and reflect on their feelings. You'll offer people the opportunity to change by experimenting with different ways of thinking, feeling and behaving. You may use puppets, masks or stories to help their clients. Another technique is role play where clients can try out alternative behaviours and strategies. Clients learn more about their own behaviour and reactions to other people. This helps them to understand social situations and deal with them more assertively. You'll create a secure environment which helps people have some fun while building their self awareness and self confidence.You'll work with people of all ages - children, young people adults and the elderly. Your clients may have a range of difficulties such as emotional, behavioural or mental health problems, learning or physical disabilities, life-limiting conditions, neurological conditions or physical illnesses."

Chair, Patient & Public Voice Assurance Group:

"The Chair will be required to provide strong leadership for the PPVAG to enable it to fulfil its strategic purpose and to ensure effective relationships within the group and between the group and partners and stakeholders within and beyond NHS England. The chair will oversee PPVAG, chair meetings and delegate actions as necessary, facilitate contributions from members ensuring equity amongst stakeholders, provide support and guidance to all PPVAG members and pro-actively address issues and concerns as they arise, undertake an annual review for all independent PPVAG members, provide representation on behalf of the Group as and when required, including attendance at the NHS England National Commissioning Group and Delegated Commissioning Group (NCG/DCG), have responsibility for escalating key issues and concerns within NHS England, maintain pro-active relationships with a range of key stakeholders, including patients, patient groups and interested organisations, oversee the production of an Annual Report which will be presented to the NHS England NCG / DCG and maintain oversight of the Participation Framework for Specialised Commissioning."

Head of Comms & Engagement:

"Working closely with Trust leadership and senior management, the post holder will provide advice on communications and engagement activity to promote our values and services in line with an agreed communications and engagement strategy. They will also ensure our key messages are clearly articulated and provide advice to ensure the good reputation of the trust is reflected internally and externally as well as ensuring balance in any negative coverage or comment of the trust. This will mean providing advice and guidance to senior personnel on frequently complex and often delicate, high-profile or contentious issues.

The successful candidate will help to enable and hold sustainable and meaningful dialogue with diverse communities and citizens ensuring the Trust's strategy both reflects the aspirations and needs of all those it serves and who work for it and that engagement is visible and effective.

The role will also involve providing a professional media relations and issues management service on both a proactive and reactive basis. The post holder will seek opportunities to promote and enhance the Trust's reputation with all audiences. This will involve consistency of message and supporting the Director of Communications, Engagement and Fundraising in close liaison with key stakeholders in the local health and care system."

So which of these 'non jobs' isn't delivering clinical, patient, public or administrative value to the NHS?
Yes they all contribute something but they’re luxuries that the NHS can’t afford imo. Why do we need these dubious roles when people are dying while still on for example cancer treatment waiting lists?

ben5575

6,641 posts

228 months

Wednesday 18th September
quotequote all
EmailAddress said:
bad company said:
I’m just posing the question about how the NHS spends its money. We all know that the NHS is struggling and imo no amount of increased funding will ever be enough. We’re living longer and requiring more healthcare which is probably a major cause.

Enough non froth for you?
I'm just asking the questions.

Ya.
Exactly

bad company said:
I’m referring to all of the imo non jobs.
Why do you think they are non jobs? Do you have a lot of experience in leading/managing large organisations and if so why do you believe head of comms etc for example is a non job?

Likewise what's you experience of the creative arts and how they can impact people lives and health outcomes?

Just looking for your contribution, just as you are of others. Unless 'imo' is the extent of it of course?

valiant

11,338 posts

167 months

Wednesday 18th September
quotequote all
bad company said:
Yes they all contribute something but they’re luxuries that the NHS can’t afford imo. Why do we need these dubious roles when people are dying while still on for example cancer treatment waiting lists?
But if something like drama therapy stops a readmission and puts the patient on the road to recovery then surely it's beneficial to the patient and a cost effective way to limit long term care costs?

I imagine that this is primarily aimed at mental health issues rather than someone who's just had a hip replacement and if so then it's something we should definitely be trying with as mental health is pretty much ignored and yet is a large drain upon society.

Slowboathome

4,460 posts

51 months

Wednesday 18th September
quotequote all
essayer said:
Yes, the NHS should only employ doctors and nurses. No other employees are required. It's only a small organisation, so just needs front-line staff.
I couldn't disagree more.

The Service is desperately short of Arts Coordinators.

When will the government wake up to the fact that patients are crying out for more street theatre.

pneumothorax

1,600 posts

238 months

Wednesday 18th September
quotequote all
2xChevrons said:
bad company said:
OK I found this posted by a Reform supporter on Facebook so please feel free to call it out if not genuine.

Assuming these (non) jobs are real surely the money should be spent on front line doctors and nurses?]
Are these 'non jobs'?

Organisational Development Faciliator:

"Using coaching and facilitation skills you will support teams delivering improvement projects across the organisation.You will support teams in making improvements to emergency and non-elective pathways.You will co-ordinate and promote wider improvement projects across the Trust and linked organisations.You will provide teams with improvement and transformation techniques including support with analytics and statistical measurements.You will support with the evaluation of improvement and help adapt approaches on a continuous basis."

Arts Coordinator:

"You'll engage with a range of art forms including visual art, literature, dance, music, crafts, new media, combined arts, circus and drama. As an arts manager or coordinator, you may also be responsible for cultural projects such as using visual arts to improve the hospital environment, encouraging staff and patients to participate in the arts, staging exhibitions or concerts by staff and patients, developing artist- , poet- or writer-in-residence programmes, running books clubs or reading aloud groups, coordinating other art forms - dance, music, crafts, new media, circus or drama, for example.Your work may also involve raising funds to support arts projects, agreeing an arts strategy and policies, working in partnership with other organisations such as other health and care agencies, voluntary sector agencies, arts organisations, local authorities and funders."

Dramatherapist:

"You'll use the healing aspects of drama and theatre to help people explore and reflect on their feelings. You'll offer people the opportunity to change by experimenting with different ways of thinking, feeling and behaving. You may use puppets, masks or stories to help their clients. Another technique is role play where clients can try out alternative behaviours and strategies. Clients learn more about their own behaviour and reactions to other people. This helps them to understand social situations and deal with them more assertively. You'll create a secure environment which helps people have some fun while building their self awareness and self confidence.You'll work with people of all ages - children, young people adults and the elderly. Your clients may have a range of difficulties such as emotional, behavioural or mental health problems, learning or physical disabilities, life-limiting conditions, neurological conditions or physical illnesses."

Chair, Patient & Public Voice Assurance Group:

"The Chair will be required to provide strong leadership for the PPVAG to enable it to fulfil its strategic purpose and to ensure effective relationships within the group and between the group and partners and stakeholders within and beyond NHS England. The chair will oversee PPVAG, chair meetings and delegate actions as necessary, facilitate contributions from members ensuring equity amongst stakeholders, provide support and guidance to all PPVAG members and pro-actively address issues and concerns as they arise, undertake an annual review for all independent PPVAG members, provide representation on behalf of the Group as and when required, including attendance at the NHS England National Commissioning Group and Delegated Commissioning Group (NCG/DCG), have responsibility for escalating key issues and concerns within NHS England, maintain pro-active relationships with a range of key stakeholders, including patients, patient groups and interested organisations, oversee the production of an Annual Report which will be presented to the NHS England NCG / DCG and maintain oversight of the Participation Framework for Specialised Commissioning."

Head of Comms & Engagement:

"Working closely with Trust leadership and senior management, the post holder will provide advice on communications and engagement activity to promote our values and services in line with an agreed communications and engagement strategy. They will also ensure our key messages are clearly articulated and provide advice to ensure the good reputation of the trust is reflected internally and externally as well as ensuring balance in any negative coverage or comment of the trust. This will mean providing advice and guidance to senior personnel on frequently complex and often delicate, high-profile or contentious issues.

The successful candidate will help to enable and hold sustainable and meaningful dialogue with diverse communities and citizens ensuring the Trust's strategy both reflects the aspirations and needs of all those it serves and who work for it and that engagement is visible and effective.

The role will also involve providing a professional media relations and issues management service on both a proactive and reactive basis. The post holder will seek opportunities to promote and enhance the Trust's reputation with all audiences. This will involve consistency of message and supporting the Director of Communications, Engagement and Fundraising in close liaison with key stakeholders in the local health and care system."

So which of these 'non jobs' isn't delivering clinical, patient, public or administrative value to the NHS?
They might not be "non jobs" but they are not, imho roles that are going to be offering significant value to today's NHS.

borcy

5,525 posts

63 months

Wednesday 18th September
quotequote all
Why would head of comms be a non job?

Slowboathome

4,460 posts

51 months

Wednesday 18th September
quotequote all
2xChevrons said:
Are these 'non jobs'?

Organisational Development Faciliator:

"Using coaching and facilitation skills you will support teams delivering improvement projects across the organisation.You will support teams in making improvements to emergency and non-elective pathways.You will co-ordinate and promote wider improvement projects across the Trust and linked organisations.You will provide teams with improvement and transformation techniques including support with analytics and statistical measurements.You will support with the evaluation of improvement and help adapt approaches on a continuous basis."

Arts Coordinator:

"You'll engage with a range of art forms including visual art, literature, dance, music, crafts, new media, combined arts, circus and drama. As an arts manager or coordinator, you may also be responsible for cultural projects such as using visual arts to improve the hospital environment, encouraging staff and patients to participate in the arts, staging exhibitions or concerts by staff and patients, developing artist- , poet- or writer-in-residence programmes, running books clubs or reading aloud groups, coordinating other art forms - dance, music, crafts, new media, circus or drama, for example.Your work may also involve raising funds to support arts projects, agreeing an arts strategy and policies, working in partnership with other organisations such as other health and care agencies, voluntary sector agencies, arts organisations, local authorities and funders."

Dramatherapist:

"You'll use the healing aspects of drama and theatre to help people explore and reflect on their feelings. You'll offer people the opportunity to change by experimenting with different ways of thinking, feeling and behaving. You may use puppets, masks or stories to help their clients. Another technique is role play where clients can try out alternative behaviours and strategies. Clients learn more about their own behaviour and reactions to other people. This helps them to understand social situations and deal with them more assertively. You'll create a secure environment which helps people have some fun while building their self awareness and self confidence.You'll work with people of all ages - children, young people adults and the elderly. Your clients may have a range of difficulties such as emotional, behavioural or mental health problems, learning or physical disabilities, life-limiting conditions, neurological conditions or physical illnesses."

Chair, Patient & Public Voice Assurance Group:

"The Chair will be required to provide strong leadership for the PPVAG to enable it to fulfil its strategic purpose and to ensure effective relationships within the group and between the group and partners and stakeholders within and beyond NHS England. The chair will oversee PPVAG, chair meetings and delegate actions as necessary, facilitate contributions from members ensuring equity amongst stakeholders, provide support and guidance to all PPVAG members and pro-actively address issues and concerns as they arise, undertake an annual review for all independent PPVAG members, provide representation on behalf of the Group as and when required, including attendance at the NHS England National Commissioning Group and Delegated Commissioning Group (NCG/DCG), have responsibility for escalating key issues and concerns within NHS England, maintain pro-active relationships with a range of key stakeholders, including patients, patient groups and interested organisations, oversee the production of an Annual Report which will be presented to the NHS England NCG / DCG and maintain oversight of the Participation Framework for Specialised Commissioning."

Head of Comms & Engagement:

"Working closely with Trust leadership and senior management, the post holder will provide advice on communications and engagement activity to promote our values and services in line with an agreed communications and engagement strategy. They will also ensure our key messages are clearly articulated and provide advice to ensure the good reputation of the trust is reflected internally and externally as well as ensuring balance in any negative coverage or comment of the trust. This will mean providing advice and guidance to senior personnel on frequently complex and often delicate, high-profile or contentious issues.

The successful candidate will help to enable and hold sustainable and meaningful dialogue with diverse communities and citizens ensuring the Trust's strategy both reflects the aspirations and needs of all those it serves and who work for it and that engagement is visible and effective.

The role will also involve providing a professional media relations and issues management service on both a proactive and reactive basis. The post holder will seek opportunities to promote and enhance the Trust's reputation with all audiences. This will involve consistency of message and supporting the Director of Communications, Engagement and Fundraising in close liaison with key stakeholders in the local health and care system."

So which of these 'non jobs' isn't delivering clinical, patient, public or administrative value to the NHS?
It's time we looked harder at public health and prevention, particularly in the area of obesity.

At a population level we need a greater understanding of how to put togethrer tasty but nutritious meals.

My vision is for every ward to have its own pastry chef.

Or....or.......

WE COULD JUST fkING PRIORITISE AND PUT OUR SCARCE RESOURCES INTO THE AREAS THAT MAKE THE GREATEST DIFFERENCE TO THE PATIENTS.

Silvanus

6,041 posts

30 months

Wednesday 18th September
quotequote all
borcy said:
Why would head of comms be a non job?
What do you mean? Saking the head of comms would instantly reduce cancer waiting lists and improve child mental health