The Crisis At VW aka How To Destroy Germany
Discussion
Germans, I tell my family and friends, they used to be run by clever people but more recently......
https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/...
It's tragic and completely avoidable.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/...
It's tragic and completely avoidable.
Oh how we used to laugh at Chinese vehicles...
You only had to visit Goodwood this year, which was dominated by Chinese manufacturers to see where the car industry is going! (And yes, I appreciate a lot of that was down to the cost of a pitch ((greed)) which squeezes out the smaller brands...but even so. You can't help but be impressed at how far they've developed).
To put it very very simply. If Japan destroyed the British car industry by making better cars, China will destroy the German car industry by making cheaper cars.
The OP says it's available...But I don't know how?
You only had to visit Goodwood this year, which was dominated by Chinese manufacturers to see where the car industry is going! (And yes, I appreciate a lot of that was down to the cost of a pitch ((greed)) which squeezes out the smaller brands...but even so. You can't help but be impressed at how far they've developed).
To put it very very simply. If Japan destroyed the British car industry by making better cars, China will destroy the German car industry by making cheaper cars.
The OP says it's available...But I don't know how?
Edited by Timothy Bucktu on Sunday 8th September 09:24
With China and other countries coming into the vehicle-making business, it was bound to happen, even with the EU lowering the value of the 'Deutschemark'. The hit with fraudulent emissions claims can't have helped.
They've been dominant for years. Sooner or later, it would end. It always does. There was not just one trigger. It was a combination.
They've been dominant for years. Sooner or later, it would end. It always does. There was not just one trigger. It was a combination.
This is redolent of our "single market" moment. The German brands (and Japanese) swept into an unprepared Britain and caught us resting lazily on our laurels, we were workshop to the world and got lazy and complacent.
The world has turned and now China is the workshop to the world and the German brands cannot compete and will go the way of British Leyland and all the other big names that we lost to buyouts, mergers or just simply shutting down.
Hard to see what their Government can do about it really, ours failed miserably and the bloat of the EU as an edifice may well make this a hard problem to wrangle, so much talk and procrastination so little in the way of much that can be done about it.
EU workers cost too much and have rights. China will use borderline slave labour to dominate any market they want, and then use the money the west send to them to use "belt and road" to shackle developing nations to them. Its a financial empire.
Look at all the EU companies that are now Chinese owned, Volvo is the most obvious one plus their investments into others is very far reaching.
Here in the UK they own a lot and part own a lot more. Europe as a whole is becoming little more than a holiday destination for the wealthy Chinese who are allowed to travel, we certainly wont be reviving our large industry or manufacturing anytime soon.
The world has turned and now China is the workshop to the world and the German brands cannot compete and will go the way of British Leyland and all the other big names that we lost to buyouts, mergers or just simply shutting down.
Hard to see what their Government can do about it really, ours failed miserably and the bloat of the EU as an edifice may well make this a hard problem to wrangle, so much talk and procrastination so little in the way of much that can be done about it.
EU workers cost too much and have rights. China will use borderline slave labour to dominate any market they want, and then use the money the west send to them to use "belt and road" to shackle developing nations to them. Its a financial empire.
Look at all the EU companies that are now Chinese owned, Volvo is the most obvious one plus their investments into others is very far reaching.
Here in the UK they own a lot and part own a lot more. Europe as a whole is becoming little more than a holiday destination for the wealthy Chinese who are allowed to travel, we certainly wont be reviving our large industry or manufacturing anytime soon.
Getragdogleg said:
This is redolent of our "single market" moment. The German brands (and Japanese) swept into an unprepared Britain and caught us resting lazily on our laurels, we were workshop to the world and got lazy and complacent.
The world has turned and now China is the workshop to the world and the German brands cannot compete and will go the way of British Leyland and all the other big names that we lost to buyouts, mergers or just simply shutting down.
Hard to see what their Government can do about it really, ours failed miserably and the bloat of the EU as an edifice may well make this a hard problem to wrangle, so much talk and procrastination so little in the way of much that can be done about it.
EU workers cost too much and have rights. China will use borderline slave labour to dominate any market they want, and then use the money the west send to them to use "belt and road" to shackle developing nations to them. Its a financial empire.
Look at all the EU companies that are now Chinese owned, Volvo is the most obvious one plus their investments into others is very far reaching.
Here in the UK they own a lot and part own a lot more. Europe as a whole is becoming little more than a holiday destination for the wealthy Chinese who are allowed to travel, we certainly wont be reviving our large industry or manufacturing anytime soon.
That's where tariffs come in. Of course, that has potential downsides too - but realistically it means that they'll own the market, but it'll be produced 'locally' under their ownership, keeping locals employed and with decent employment rights/conditions. The world has turned and now China is the workshop to the world and the German brands cannot compete and will go the way of British Leyland and all the other big names that we lost to buyouts, mergers or just simply shutting down.
Hard to see what their Government can do about it really, ours failed miserably and the bloat of the EU as an edifice may well make this a hard problem to wrangle, so much talk and procrastination so little in the way of much that can be done about it.
EU workers cost too much and have rights. China will use borderline slave labour to dominate any market they want, and then use the money the west send to them to use "belt and road" to shackle developing nations to them. Its a financial empire.
Look at all the EU companies that are now Chinese owned, Volvo is the most obvious one plus their investments into others is very far reaching.
Here in the UK they own a lot and part own a lot more. Europe as a whole is becoming little more than a holiday destination for the wealthy Chinese who are allowed to travel, we certainly wont be reviving our large industry or manufacturing anytime soon.
I’m in materials handling and the German senior managements arrogance has been breathtaking. Generally McKinsey educated spreadsheet kings with no idea what it’s like at ground level.
I’ve seen it coming for years and it’s fallen on deaf ears until very recently.
Fascinating time but I do fear it’s almost too late, their costs are essentially fixed so what do they do other than move production?
I’ve seen it coming for years and it’s fallen on deaf ears until very recently.
Fascinating time but I do fear it’s almost too late, their costs are essentially fixed so what do they do other than move production?
Joscal said:
I’m in materials handling and the German senior managements arrogance has been breathtaking. Generally McKinsey educated spreadsheet kings with no idea what it’s like at ground level.
I’ve seen it coming for years and it’s fallen on deaf ears until very recently.
Fascinating time but I do fear it’s almost too late, their costs are essentially fixed so what do they do other than move production?
They can't even do that. Their entire infrastructure is rooted in mass production of ICE vehicles. Migrating any plant from that to EV is almost as expensive as starting from scratch - yet there's also some very real political and labour relations costs to doing either as well! I’ve seen it coming for years and it’s fallen on deaf ears until very recently.
Fascinating time but I do fear it’s almost too late, their costs are essentially fixed so what do they do other than move production?
I can’t see Audi/BMW/Merc having major issues yet. It’s harder for the likes of VW in the middle, as they’re getting hit from all sides- Korean cars, Chinese, Tesla, interest rate rises, list price increases, wage stagnation, and so on.
People paying £90k for a big SUV aren’t likely affected by the above, but Golf and Tiguan buyers/leasers are. VW haven’t helped themselves by cost cutting- it went too far in the Golf MK8. I fancied a GTD, but bought an Audi instead. Similar prices (or cheaper) on the nearly new/used market, but much better quality.
When times get tough, the middle often suffers while budget and premium brands do well.
People paying £90k for a big SUV aren’t likely affected by the above, but Golf and Tiguan buyers/leasers are. VW haven’t helped themselves by cost cutting- it went too far in the Golf MK8. I fancied a GTD, but bought an Audi instead. Similar prices (or cheaper) on the nearly new/used market, but much better quality.
When times get tough, the middle often suffers while budget and premium brands do well.
Fusion777 said:
I can’t see Audi/BMW/Merc having major issues yet. It’s harder for the likes of VW in the middle, as they’re getting hit from all sides- Korean cars, Chinese, Tesla, interest rate rises, list price increases, wage stagnation, and so on.
People paying £90k for a big SUV aren’t likely affected by the above, but Golf and Tiguan buyers/leasers are. VW haven’t helped themselves by cost cutting- it went too far in the Golf MK8. I fancied a GTD, but bought an Audi instead.
I can't see VW Group being too concerned if people switch from VW to Audi!People paying £90k for a big SUV aren’t likely affected by the above, but Golf and Tiguan buyers/leasers are. VW haven’t helped themselves by cost cutting- it went too far in the Golf MK8. I fancied a GTD, but bought an Audi instead.
Wife has 'downgraded' from Tiguan to Karoq - but I wouldn't be surprised if Karoq is more profitable as it's built in Czech Republic.
The real problem is a war is being fought to cripple the West's economies from various unsavoury sources around the world.
China - economically destroy business then cherry pick them for takeover.
Mass imigration - soak up our resorces.
Net Zero - bankrupt a country by pushing a false agenda.
These people know they can't take the west on in a military war, take the conflict in Israel for example started to take the West's eye off Ukraine, that worked out quite well for them...not.
China - economically destroy business then cherry pick them for takeover.
Mass imigration - soak up our resorces.
Net Zero - bankrupt a country by pushing a false agenda.
These people know they can't take the west on in a military war, take the conflict in Israel for example started to take the West's eye off Ukraine, that worked out quite well for them...not.
Sheepshanks said:
I can't see VW Group being too concerned if people switch from VW to Audi!
Wife has 'downgraded' from Tiguan to Karoq - but I wouldn't be surprised if Karoq is more profitable as it's built in Czech Republic.
Of course. I could have just as easily switched from VW to BMW though. Wife has 'downgraded' from Tiguan to Karoq - but I wouldn't be surprised if Karoq is more profitable as it's built in Czech Republic.
Sway said:
Getragdogleg said:
This is redolent of our "single market" moment. The German brands (and Japanese) swept into an unprepared Britain and caught us resting lazily on our laurels, we were workshop to the world and got lazy and complacent.
The world has turned and now China is the workshop to the world and the German brands cannot compete and will go the way of British Leyland and all the other big names that we lost to buyouts, mergers or just simply shutting down.
Hard to see what their Government can do about it really, ours failed miserably and the bloat of the EU as an edifice may well make this a hard problem to wrangle, so much talk and procrastination so little in the way of much that can be done about it.
EU workers cost too much and have rights. China will use borderline slave labour to dominate any market they want, and then use the money the west send to them to use "belt and road" to shackle developing nations to them. Its a financial empire.
Look at all the EU companies that are now Chinese owned, Volvo is the most obvious one plus their investments into others is very far reaching.
Here in the UK they own a lot and part own a lot more. Europe as a whole is becoming little more than a holiday destination for the wealthy Chinese who are allowed to travel, we certainly wont be reviving our large industry or manufacturing anytime soon.
That's where tariffs come in. Of course, that has potential downsides too - but realistically it means that they'll own the market, but it'll be produced 'locally' under their ownership, keeping locals employed and with decent employment rights/conditions. The world has turned and now China is the workshop to the world and the German brands cannot compete and will go the way of British Leyland and all the other big names that we lost to buyouts, mergers or just simply shutting down.
Hard to see what their Government can do about it really, ours failed miserably and the bloat of the EU as an edifice may well make this a hard problem to wrangle, so much talk and procrastination so little in the way of much that can be done about it.
EU workers cost too much and have rights. China will use borderline slave labour to dominate any market they want, and then use the money the west send to them to use "belt and road" to shackle developing nations to them. Its a financial empire.
Look at all the EU companies that are now Chinese owned, Volvo is the most obvious one plus their investments into others is very far reaching.
Here in the UK they own a lot and part own a lot more. Europe as a whole is becoming little more than a holiday destination for the wealthy Chinese who are allowed to travel, we certainly wont be reviving our large industry or manufacturing anytime soon.
Germany potentially has bigger issues to wrangle than even we did in the 60s. German company interdependencies, which served them well over the last 50yrs+, could make dealing with all of this very tricky.
The West generally needs to have a long hard think about dependence on "low cost" and the regimes that form part of it. China has had an interesting "slowly, slowly" approach, getting a foothold in where all the natural resources are. It's going to be difficult for the West, and especially if our citizens continue being told they can have everything for nothing.
Interesting times over the next few decades I think. Biggest concern is whether/when/how this spills over into war. Everyone cannot have everything. There are going to be winners and losers.
Murph7355 said:
If their electorates will tolerate the inevitable price premium and/or wage reductions that come with it.
Germany potentially has bigger issues to wrangle than even we did in the 60s. German company interdependencies, which served them well over the last 50yrs+, could make dealing with all of this very tricky.
The West generally needs to have a long hard think about dependence on "low cost" and the regimes that form part of it. China has had an interesting "slowly, slowly" approach, getting a foothold in where all the natural resources are. It's going to be difficult for the West, and especially if our citizens continue being told they can have everything for nothing.
Interesting times over the next few decades I think. Biggest concern is whether/when/how this spills over into war. Everyone cannot have everything. There are going to be winners and losers.
Whilst I agree with the rest of your post Murph, come on man, you think the electorate will have any choice on tariff regimes pushing up prices? Especially when presented as 'protecting local businesses from the predations of communist China making use of effective slave labour'?Germany potentially has bigger issues to wrangle than even we did in the 60s. German company interdependencies, which served them well over the last 50yrs+, could make dealing with all of this very tricky.
The West generally needs to have a long hard think about dependence on "low cost" and the regimes that form part of it. China has had an interesting "slowly, slowly" approach, getting a foothold in where all the natural resources are. It's going to be difficult for the West, and especially if our citizens continue being told they can have everything for nothing.
Interesting times over the next few decades I think. Biggest concern is whether/when/how this spills over into war. Everyone cannot have everything. There are going to be winners and losers.
They'll be clapping in the streets to be allowed to pay more, even if the reality is that volumes will drop massively unless the automotive company finance houses can be even more 'creative' than they have been for the last 20 years!
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