UK has highest tax burden in history
Discussion
Yet labour thinks raising taxes will solve issues. I am totally confused here, why are there no talk of cutbacks considering how much the NHS and councils are in debt as well, which ends up being paid off by the government. Debt really is killing economic growth potential , and this isn't even good debt.
I genuinely fear the economy is going to suffer massively if taxes are raised further.
I genuinely fear the economy is going to suffer massively if taxes are raised further.
What does anyone expect?
We have an ageing population, who earn less, and cost more. Health costs are going up if for no other reason than we are all getting older and sicker. Pension costs are going up because we have more older people.
In the meanwhile we have capped immigration, not allowing younger workers onto the scene. Immigrants are generally positive for the economy because we don't spend on them, but do tax them.
Housing prices are eyewatering due to a historic lack of investment.
Public spending is going up further because of the high rates of public service pay awards.
Brexit, covid, Ukraine, and stock market crashes have all had an impact of public finances.
National productivity is coming down because of the lack of infrastructure spend, especially outside of London.
These features would be faced by any Government of any colour.
Answer? Seriously consider our first past the post parliament. Completely bonkers that in 2016 the Brexit party had 16% (?) of the popular vote, but no say in parliament.
Let's see if we can have more consensual politics that see extreme policies like £16b on a Rwandan people export business become a thing of the past. So we could have better long term agreement on what to do with the fat and overbloated monstrosity that is the NHS, etc etc.
But the basic underlying fundamentals of an aging population and lack of investment are seriously bad news for the UK (and most of Europe)
We have an ageing population, who earn less, and cost more. Health costs are going up if for no other reason than we are all getting older and sicker. Pension costs are going up because we have more older people.
In the meanwhile we have capped immigration, not allowing younger workers onto the scene. Immigrants are generally positive for the economy because we don't spend on them, but do tax them.
Housing prices are eyewatering due to a historic lack of investment.
Public spending is going up further because of the high rates of public service pay awards.
Brexit, covid, Ukraine, and stock market crashes have all had an impact of public finances.
National productivity is coming down because of the lack of infrastructure spend, especially outside of London.
These features would be faced by any Government of any colour.
Answer? Seriously consider our first past the post parliament. Completely bonkers that in 2016 the Brexit party had 16% (?) of the popular vote, but no say in parliament.
Let's see if we can have more consensual politics that see extreme policies like £16b on a Rwandan people export business become a thing of the past. So we could have better long term agreement on what to do with the fat and overbloated monstrosity that is the NHS, etc etc.
But the basic underlying fundamentals of an aging population and lack of investment are seriously bad news for the UK (and most of Europe)
bearman68 said:
In the meanwhile we have capped immigration, not allowing younger workers onto the scene. Immigrants are generally positive for the economy because we don't spend on them, but do tax them.
Capped? 'In the twelve months to December 2023, approximately 1.22 million people migrated to the United Kingdom'.They mostly earn low wages so pay little tax - and who is going to pay for them when they get old? More immigrants? If you project the lines forward it doesn't look good.
We're always going to need some flow, but we have to try to get back towards sustainability. But I have no idea how. As a nation we've lost the plot.
On 'investment', which sounds lovely, it's also called spending - which requires taxation....
Dingu said:
Probably because previous generations chronically under invested and under funded stuff for lower taxes. Total mismanagement which now needs paying for.
Of course, more money always solved mismanagementin the past.
Perhaps something more along the lines of various layers of auditing from local councils upwards. Done by teams of OCD types or AI. Of course a mammoth task...
I'll wager that money is being pissed up the wall or robbed all over the place.
bearman68 said:
What does anyone expect?
We have an ageing population, who earn less, and cost more. Health costs are going up if for no other reason than we are all getting older and sicker. Pension costs are going up because we have more older people.
In the meanwhile we have capped immigration, not allowing younger workers onto the scene. Immigrants are generally positive for the economy because we don't spend on them, but do tax them.
Housing prices are eyewatering due to a historic lack of investment.
Public spending is going up further because of the high rates of public service pay awards.
Brexit, covid, Ukraine, and stock market crashes have all had an impact of public finances.
National productivity is coming down because of the lack of infrastructure spend, especially outside of London.
These features would be faced by any Government of any colour.
Answer? Seriously consider our first past the post parliament. Completely bonkers that in 2016 the Brexit party had 16% (?) of the popular vote, but no say in parliament.
Let's see if we can have more consensual politics that see extreme policies like £16b on a Rwandan people export business become a thing of the past. So we could have better long term agreement on what to do with the fat and overbloated monstrosity that is the NHS, etc etc.
But the basic underlying fundamentals of an aging population and lack of investment are seriously bad news for the UK (and most of Europe)
Some thoughtful stuff in there, but some nonsense too.We have an ageing population, who earn less, and cost more. Health costs are going up if for no other reason than we are all getting older and sicker. Pension costs are going up because we have more older people.
In the meanwhile we have capped immigration, not allowing younger workers onto the scene. Immigrants are generally positive for the economy because we don't spend on them, but do tax them.
Housing prices are eyewatering due to a historic lack of investment.
Public spending is going up further because of the high rates of public service pay awards.
Brexit, covid, Ukraine, and stock market crashes have all had an impact of public finances.
National productivity is coming down because of the lack of infrastructure spend, especially outside of London.
These features would be faced by any Government of any colour.
Answer? Seriously consider our first past the post parliament. Completely bonkers that in 2016 the Brexit party had 16% (?) of the popular vote, but no say in parliament.
Let's see if we can have more consensual politics that see extreme policies like £16b on a Rwandan people export business become a thing of the past. So we could have better long term agreement on what to do with the fat and overbloated monstrosity that is the NHS, etc etc.
But the basic underlying fundamentals of an aging population and lack of investment are seriously bad news for the UK (and most of Europe)
For example, public sector spend increases are not caused by pay rises, which have lagged behind the public sector in recent years
It's rising due to demand. Some which you spotted (aging pop) but some which are hidden to many (send, homelessness, care etc.
Ultimately voters demand /expect 1st world level of services but the economy isn't strong enough to pay for it. Labour, and the Tories before therefore had to increase tax.
So whilst we have the highest tax burden, we're also receiving the highest amount of spend ever made on the public (probably).
The key issues like productivity - do you think there should be less tax and spend and let "the market" sort it out?
Or should the government get involved in shaping economic growth through policies.
Looking at the more successful countries would seem to be a sensible place to start.
I once saw Mervin King, ex Bank of England governor, give an interview about taxes. He said in the UK we don't seem to be able to have an adult conversation/debate about this without it degenerating into kids playground stuff. His view is there's a choice between low taxes like the US system, but very little public services, limited safety net for the vulnerable and a capitalist mantra in most areas. Or, much higher taxes than we already have supporting wide ranging, good quality public services, generous support for the vulnerable and a much more social mantra. What we definitely cannot have for any sustainable period is relatively low taxes and good public services/safety nets.
We in the UK may have a high tax burden relative to our recent history, but its low compared with many of our European neighbours who, in the main, have far better infrastructure/services/safety nets. I know there are exceptions where low taxes and top services go hand in hand (Switzerland, eg), but these are the exceptions, not the rule.
I think the key problem in the UK is our inability to spend the tax revenue in an efficient, productive, strategic and beneficial way. Politics just gets in the way and we end up fire-fighting every issue and spending money on short term, absolutely f
king rubbish, temporary solutions.
We in the UK may have a high tax burden relative to our recent history, but its low compared with many of our European neighbours who, in the main, have far better infrastructure/services/safety nets. I know there are exceptions where low taxes and top services go hand in hand (Switzerland, eg), but these are the exceptions, not the rule.
I think the key problem in the UK is our inability to spend the tax revenue in an efficient, productive, strategic and beneficial way. Politics just gets in the way and we end up fire-fighting every issue and spending money on short term, absolutely f
king rubbish, temporary solutions.Simpo Two said:
Capped? 'In the twelve months to December 2023, approximately 1.22 million people migrated to the United Kingdom'.
They mostly earn low wages so pay little tax - and who is going to pay for them when they get old? More immigrants? If you project the lines forward it doesn't look good.
We're always going to need some flow, but we have to try to get back towards sustainability. But I have no idea how. As a nation we've lost the plot.
On 'investment', which sounds lovely, it's also called spending - which requires taxation....
I don't have the answer to immigration. I'm not bright enough for that, and it's above my pay grade. But I do recognise there is a difference between spending and investment. They mostly earn low wages so pay little tax - and who is going to pay for them when they get old? More immigrants? If you project the lines forward it doesn't look good.
We're always going to need some flow, but we have to try to get back towards sustainability. But I have no idea how. As a nation we've lost the plot.
On 'investment', which sounds lovely, it's also called spending - which requires taxation....
tegwin said:
Why so much focus on tax raises and cutbacks.
Where are the plans to get better value from our services?
The sheer amount of waste in the nhs, civil service etc is crazy. We should be able to sustain our current level of service but by spending less….
Well yeah I would imagine there’s a lot of waste for the NHS treating the over 90’s who have had a good innings.Where are the plans to get better value from our services?
The sheer amount of waste in the nhs, civil service etc is crazy. We should be able to sustain our current level of service but by spending less….
Go back 40 years and we would treat the Over 70’s the same to prolong life for a couple of years.
How much did Covid cost the national financially and the impact on the youths mental health to save the old Tory voters ?
We spend billions on overseas aid and the armed forces.
Why do we need such a big army ffs ?
The number of MP’s and Councillors and folks in the house of lords. What value do they add to the economy ?
Edited by Downward on Wednesday 31st July 20:26
bearman68 said:
What does anyone expect?
We have an ageing population, who earn less, and cost more. Health costs are going up if for no other reason than we are all getting older and sicker. Pension costs are going up because we have more older people.
In the meanwhile we have capped immigration, not allowing younger workers onto the scene. Immigrants are generally positive for the economy because we don't spend on them, but do tax them.
Housing prices are eyewatering due to a historic lack of investment.
Public spending is going up further because of the high rates of public service pay awards.
Brexit, covid, Ukraine, and stock market crashes have all had an impact of public finances.
National productivity is coming down because of the lack of infrastructure spend, especially outside of London.
These features would be faced by any Government of any colour.
Answer? Seriously consider our first past the post parliament. Completely bonkers that in 2016 the Brexit party had 16% (?) of the popular vote, but no say in parliament.
Let's see if we can have more consensual politics that see extreme policies like £16b on a Rwandan people export business become a thing of the past. So we could have better long term agreement on what to do with the fat and overbloated monstrosity that is the NHS, etc etc.
But the basic underlying fundamentals of an aging population and lack of investment are seriously bad news for the UK (and most of Europe)
Immigration is fine if you also spend on infrastructure. We don't do that so it leads to more problems and/or gets worse for everyone.We have an ageing population, who earn less, and cost more. Health costs are going up if for no other reason than we are all getting older and sicker. Pension costs are going up because we have more older people.
In the meanwhile we have capped immigration, not allowing younger workers onto the scene. Immigrants are generally positive for the economy because we don't spend on them, but do tax them.
Housing prices are eyewatering due to a historic lack of investment.
Public spending is going up further because of the high rates of public service pay awards.
Brexit, covid, Ukraine, and stock market crashes have all had an impact of public finances.
National productivity is coming down because of the lack of infrastructure spend, especially outside of London.
These features would be faced by any Government of any colour.
Answer? Seriously consider our first past the post parliament. Completely bonkers that in 2016 the Brexit party had 16% (?) of the popular vote, but no say in parliament.
Let's see if we can have more consensual politics that see extreme policies like £16b on a Rwandan people export business become a thing of the past. So we could have better long term agreement on what to do with the fat and overbloated monstrosity that is the NHS, etc etc.
But the basic underlying fundamentals of an aging population and lack of investment are seriously bad news for the UK (and most of Europe)
TX.
Terminator X said:
Immigration is fine if you also spend on infrastructure.
UK's long term issue is that it doesn't "invest", it just "spends". Look at North Sea Oil, an incredible windfall completely wasted.Fact is, you can't tax people enough to pay for the sky-rocketing future liabilities of NHS and social care. Something has to change.
Ah yes, but immigration will solve everything. Not it won't and no it can't. The immigrants will eventually get sick and get old....
Terminator X said:
Where do all our taxes go?
TX.
Handy pie chart here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_spending_... The largest section of the largest section IYSWIM is pensions, and as we have an aging population, we either kill some off, or the pretty relentless direction of travel is tax rises.TX.
Panamax said:
Fact is, you can't tax people enough to pay for the sky-rocketing future liabilities of NHS and social care. Something has to change.
Personal responsibility—among other things—has to change. Sedentary lifestyles and obesity cost considerable money. According to the IFS, obesity alone costs the UK £65 billion a year (of which around £22 billion is a direct cost to the NHS annually).Tenacious said:
Yeah it’s ridiculous really. Just blatant lying. Terminator X said:
Where do all our taxes go? Highest tax burden since WW2 so adding to it will be pretty st imho. I agree cut back whatever we spend taxes on today.
TX.
The system is so convoluted it is hard to know. Me I think taxes should have named so fully traceable. Like healthcare tax etc t imho. I agree cut back whatever we spend taxes on today.TX.
Just one thing this NHS and council debt. Whilst they argue with the government, services are stopped , people don't get treated. Then the government just writes dent off. That was 8 billion recently with NHS. Forget politics who wins with these constant back and forth, just seems like a way to make more civil service jobs.
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