What do the Conservatives do Now?
Discussion
After the catastrophe of last night what do the Tories do to rebuild?
1. Remember elections are always lost rather than won, these last two especially so.
2. Yes a new leader will be required. That is always a challenge but surely you can learn from the past. The balance has to be right between capability, trustworthiness, credibility and charisma. The failed leaders of all parties this century have all lacked in a few of these areas.
3. The party needs principles and to stick by them. The Tories have grown into bitter factions that they thought would die off after Brexit but actually got worse. True conservative principles should be;
i) Small state
ii) Business and enterprise friendly
iii) Make work pay and reward people for it
iv) Demographics - the current mob have got lost in the issue blaming everything on immigration. The problem is population. It is
too old, too dependent and too large. Society needs to look at itself and its responsibility and it's future for funding priorities and returns.
v) Absolute integrity - closer vetting and selection of MPs.
If people don't like these principles then go elsewhere. A divided party will always fail. This tory party had no principles and a hapless and hopeless leader, following on from two other pretty hopeless leaders. I have a tiny bit of sympathy for Sunak as the damage had already been done by his predecessors.
Can they find a leader who can do this or will it be more messing with the silly things like Sunak got lost in?
1. Remember elections are always lost rather than won, these last two especially so.
2. Yes a new leader will be required. That is always a challenge but surely you can learn from the past. The balance has to be right between capability, trustworthiness, credibility and charisma. The failed leaders of all parties this century have all lacked in a few of these areas.
3. The party needs principles and to stick by them. The Tories have grown into bitter factions that they thought would die off after Brexit but actually got worse. True conservative principles should be;
i) Small state
ii) Business and enterprise friendly
iii) Make work pay and reward people for it
iv) Demographics - the current mob have got lost in the issue blaming everything on immigration. The problem is population. It is
too old, too dependent and too large. Society needs to look at itself and its responsibility and it's future for funding priorities and returns.
v) Absolute integrity - closer vetting and selection of MPs.
If people don't like these principles then go elsewhere. A divided party will always fail. This tory party had no principles and a hapless and hopeless leader, following on from two other pretty hopeless leaders. I have a tiny bit of sympathy for Sunak as the damage had already been done by his predecessors.
Can they find a leader who can do this or will it be more messing with the silly things like Sunak got lost in?
Tom8 said:
iv) Demographics - the current mob have got lost in the issue blaming everything on immigration. The problem is population. It is
too old, too dependent and too large. Society needs to look at itself and its responsibility and it's future for funding priorities and returns
The challenge they'll face here is that the solutions will go directly against their core base of >65 voters.too old, too dependent and too large. Society needs to look at itself and its responsibility and it's future for funding priorities and returns
greygoose said:
Given the rate they get through leaders then there could be two or three before the next election. Sadly their membership are a bit mad so they’ll probably go for some culture war, anti-woke nutcase rather than someone more mainstream who will appeal to the wider electorate.
This. Labour got their last period of extremism out the way while out of power, the Tories started theirs but then got Sunak in. I'm expecting a swing back to idiocy as they try to out do Reform.BikeBikeBIke said:
They wait for Nigel Farage to quit/die and then things will go back to normal. They can't win with their vote split amd there's no way to appeal to both Reformers and centrist floating voters.
Fortunately Farage is old and Reform is a Farage vehicle and won't survive without him.
I was surprised to read that he is only 60. All that beer and fags are taking their toll...Fortunately Farage is old and Reform is a Farage vehicle and won't survive without him.
The brand is quite toxic. The perception of fraud, corruption the fast tracking and the deals with friends of the party is really quite depressing.
Need to get back to one nation, self reliance and the idea of becoming better.
It’s a vision thing, and they have been sorely lacking. Plus ai can’t help but feel that of late the Conservatives have mistreated their core voters trying to appeal to people that hate them and would never vote for them.
BikeBikeBIke said:
They wait for Nigel Farage to quit/die and then things will go back to normal. They can't win with their vote split amd there's no way to appeal to both Reformers and centrist floating voters.
Fortunately Farage is old and Reform is a Farage vehicle and won't survive without him.
Farage is 60.Fortunately Farage is old and Reform is a Farage vehicle and won't survive without him.
I don't see him disappearing any time soon.
I don't think things will 'gp back to normal'.
What you're calling 'normal' is pre-brexit, the brexit era started at least 14 years ago, with UKIP taking a lot of votes in 2010.
And were the Blair years 'normal'?
The next GE is unlikely before 2029, the world has changed.
The tories need to evolve into something that people want, or they could decline further. With their policies on tax and over the last 9 or 14 years, there is nothing to differentiate them from Labour or the LDs.
The tories probably need to concentrate on local/council politics now If they lose yet more councillors they will have nothing.
XCP said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
They wait for Nigel Farage to quit/die and then things will go back to normal. They can't win with their vote split amd there's no way to appeal to both Reformers and centrist floating voters.
Fortunately Farage is old and Reform is a Farage vehicle and won't survive without him.
I was surprised to read that he is only 60. All that beer and fags are taking their toll...Fortunately Farage is old and Reform is a Farage vehicle and won't survive without him.
One thing they will have to do is ignore Farage and the Reform guys if they want to get anywhere.
The challenge is squaring the small state and lower tax ambitions with the demographics and the looming repair bill for the infrastructure that's been allowed to deteriorate.
The bottom line is that the country needs to educate its young, provide healthcare for its population and support those who cannot support themselves so that they're housed and fed. Regardless of whether that's provided directly by the state of whether it's purchased privately, there's a damn nearly fixed amount of basic provision of services that has to be achieved. We cannot leave large swathes of people suffering because they can't get healthcare, we can't leave the young uneducated and we can't leave the unemployed and their dependants starving on the streets. I'd be intrigued to see how anyone manages to deliver those basic services while shrinking the size of the state, let alone materially reducing the tax burden.
amongst other things Conservativism is about decency and fiscal prudence. Those come first, not cutting taxes.
The calls for "a real Conservative Party" just ignore reality if people think "real Conservatism" could shrink the state right now or cut taxes right now given the position we find ourselves in. In combination the private sector and public services are already not delivering what the country needs. We are going to have to allocate more economic resources to putting the services back on their feet, particularly in health and social care because demographics clearly show demand for health and social services is only going to grow in the coming years and we have to find a way of meeting that demand.
The bottom line is that the country needs to educate its young, provide healthcare for its population and support those who cannot support themselves so that they're housed and fed. Regardless of whether that's provided directly by the state of whether it's purchased privately, there's a damn nearly fixed amount of basic provision of services that has to be achieved. We cannot leave large swathes of people suffering because they can't get healthcare, we can't leave the young uneducated and we can't leave the unemployed and their dependants starving on the streets. I'd be intrigued to see how anyone manages to deliver those basic services while shrinking the size of the state, let alone materially reducing the tax burden.
amongst other things Conservativism is about decency and fiscal prudence. Those come first, not cutting taxes.
The calls for "a real Conservative Party" just ignore reality if people think "real Conservatism" could shrink the state right now or cut taxes right now given the position we find ourselves in. In combination the private sector and public services are already not delivering what the country needs. We are going to have to allocate more economic resources to putting the services back on their feet, particularly in health and social care because demographics clearly show demand for health and social services is only going to grow in the coming years and we have to find a way of meeting that demand.
XCP said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
They wait for Nigel Farage to quit/die and then things will go back to normal. They can't win with their vote split amd there's no way to appeal to both Reformers and centrist floating voters.
Fortunately Farage is old and Reform is a Farage vehicle and won't survive without him.
I was surprised to read that he is only 60. All that beer and fags are taking their toll...Fortunately Farage is old and Reform is a Farage vehicle and won't survive without him.
After the last period of awful Tory government (just prior to New Labour) it took some time for them to get back on track. They did so by moving back towards the centre, not by moving to the right.
I think part of the problem is that the party has been taken over by the anti Europe/ right wingers following Brexit so there aren’t many moderates left.
I think they need to be less ideological and more pragmatic. More business friendly (generally business was against Brexit). They also have to consider demographic change. A lot of their core voters are old white people, who are dying out. Those under 40 have more diverse backgrounds. Focusing on immigration probably appeals less to that group and their children.
I think part of the problem is that the party has been taken over by the anti Europe/ right wingers following Brexit so there aren’t many moderates left.
I think they need to be less ideological and more pragmatic. More business friendly (generally business was against Brexit). They also have to consider demographic change. A lot of their core voters are old white people, who are dying out. Those under 40 have more diverse backgrounds. Focusing on immigration probably appeals less to that group and their children.
You can't be "conservative" but also try to appeal to the socialist voters, such as those that voted reform - those are at odds with each other. I suspect the tories are done for a whole generation - they will have lots of infighting and trouble trying to define who they actually are.
PositronicRay said:
XCP said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
They wait for Nigel Farage to quit/die and then things will go back to normal. They can't win with their vote split amd there's no way to appeal to both Reformers and centrist floating voters.
Fortunately Farage is old and Reform is a Farage vehicle and won't survive without him.
I was surprised to read that he is only 60. All that beer and fags are taking their toll...Fortunately Farage is old and Reform is a Farage vehicle and won't survive without him.
When I was undecided about Brexit, I voted to remain just so that my vote cancelled out his. I am not a fan.
Tom8 said:
XCP said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
They wait for Nigel Farage to quit/die and then things will go back to normal. They can't win with their vote split amd there's no way to appeal to both Reformers and centrist floating voters.
Fortunately Farage is old and Reform is a Farage vehicle and won't survive without him.
I was surprised to read that he is only 60. All that beer and fags are taking their toll...Fortunately Farage is old and Reform is a Farage vehicle and won't survive without him.
One thing they will have to do is ignore Farage and the Reform guys if they want to get anywhere.
PurplePenguin said:
Tom8 said:
XCP said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
They wait for Nigel Farage to quit/die and then things will go back to normal. They can't win with their vote split amd there's no way to appeal to both Reformers and centrist floating voters.
Fortunately Farage is old and Reform is a Farage vehicle and won't survive without him.
I was surprised to read that he is only 60. All that beer and fags are taking their toll...Fortunately Farage is old and Reform is a Farage vehicle and won't survive without him.
One thing they will have to do is ignore Farage and the Reform guys if they want to get anywhere.
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