To those who keep saying "Britain is Broken"...
Discussion
In what ways is it actually broken?
Of course there's lots of rhetoric and hyperbole floating around on the subject, but then there always has been, but these people who are forever trying to tear the country down very rarely seem to have any objective facts and supporting statistics to prove their arguments
Having dug into it a bit, I'm inclined to think that this article by John Bryson, Professor of Enterprise & Competitiveness at the University of Birmingham sums it up pretty much perfectly...
Britain basically isn't broken, but if people keep telling themselves it is, that will have a negative impact on business and personal spending decisions which ultimately will move us down a path towards actually being broken.
Would anyone like to bring any evidence to the contrary, showing why and by how much we are "Broken" compared to other countries?
Of course there's lots of rhetoric and hyperbole floating around on the subject, but then there always has been, but these people who are forever trying to tear the country down very rarely seem to have any objective facts and supporting statistics to prove their arguments
Having dug into it a bit, I'm inclined to think that this article by John Bryson, Professor of Enterprise & Competitiveness at the University of Birmingham sums it up pretty much perfectly...
Britain basically isn't broken, but if people keep telling themselves it is, that will have a negative impact on business and personal spending decisions which ultimately will move us down a path towards actually being broken.
Would anyone like to bring any evidence to the contrary, showing why and by how much we are "Broken" compared to other countries?
I'd agree with much of that. There are some who take every opportunity to talk the country down, usually to make some obscure and often irrelevant to the facts political point. At which moment another will pipe up to show that in comparison to other nations around the world Britain is no different, even at times performing slightly better. So the Professor is correct in suggesting political discourse is broken.
However there are issues which are clearly not satisfactory and no sight of improvement and the extent of this varies wildly from region to region and even within more local areas.
I'd my area broken? Nope. There's a few warts but in general not broken.
Part of the problem is that some public services just don't deliver.
Real life example. Without going into the specifics we have a situation which is absolutely the responsibility of council services to take action, yet they're constantly trying to fob it off to the police despite it being utterly clear not a police matter. Pisses people off.
However there are issues which are clearly not satisfactory and no sight of improvement and the extent of this varies wildly from region to region and even within more local areas.
I'd my area broken? Nope. There's a few warts but in general not broken.
Part of the problem is that some public services just don't deliver.
Real life example. Without going into the specifics we have a situation which is absolutely the responsibility of council services to take action, yet they're constantly trying to fob it off to the police despite it being utterly clear not a police matter. Pisses people off.
Kermit power said:
In what ways is it actually broken?
Of course there's lots of rhetoric and hyperbole floating around on the subject, but then there always has been, but these people who are forever trying to tear the country down very rarely seem to have any objective facts and supporting statistics to prove their arguments
Having dug into it a bit, I'm inclined to think that this article by John Bryson, Professor of Enterprise & Competitiveness at the University of Birmingham sums it up pretty much perfectly...
Britain basically isn't broken, but if people keep telling themselves it is, that will have a negative impact on business and personal spending decisions which ultimately will move us down a path towards actually being broken.
Would anyone like to bring any evidence to the contrary, showing why and by how much we are "Broken" compared to other countries?
LinkOf course there's lots of rhetoric and hyperbole floating around on the subject, but then there always has been, but these people who are forever trying to tear the country down very rarely seem to have any objective facts and supporting statistics to prove their arguments
Having dug into it a bit, I'm inclined to think that this article by John Bryson, Professor of Enterprise & Competitiveness at the University of Birmingham sums it up pretty much perfectly...
Britain basically isn't broken, but if people keep telling themselves it is, that will have a negative impact on business and personal spending decisions which ultimately will move us down a path towards actually being broken.
Would anyone like to bring any evidence to the contrary, showing why and by how much we are "Broken" compared to other countries?
https://theconversation.com/britain-is-not-as-brok...
FiF said:
Real life example. Without going into the specifics we have a situation which is absolutely the responsibility of council services to take action, yet they're constantly trying to fob it off to the police despite it being utterly clear not a police matter. Pisses people off.
We have a sloping shoulders society. Not my job to clean litter or not litter, not my job to Google basic medical complaints (better go to A&E for a mild headache), not my job to potty train my children (that's for teachers), not my job to make sure the business I run is properly staffed (customers should come in, pay money and f
k off ASAP or government should train people for me).It's so pervasive that even one of my LLM products is starting to refuse to do it's job.
Police State said:
Kermit power said:
In what ways is it actually broken?
Of course there's lots of rhetoric and hyperbole floating around on the subject, but then there always has been, but these people who are forever trying to tear the country down very rarely seem to have any objective facts and supporting statistics to prove their arguments
Having dug into it a bit, I'm inclined to think that this article by John Bryson, Professor of Enterprise & Competitiveness at the University of Birmingham sums it up pretty much perfectly...
Britain basically isn't broken, but if people keep telling themselves it is, that will have a negative impact on business and personal spending decisions which ultimately will move us down a path towards actually being broken.
Would anyone like to bring any evidence to the contrary, showing why and by how much we are "Broken" compared to other countries?
LinkOf course there's lots of rhetoric and hyperbole floating around on the subject, but then there always has been, but these people who are forever trying to tear the country down very rarely seem to have any objective facts and supporting statistics to prove their arguments
Having dug into it a bit, I'm inclined to think that this article by John Bryson, Professor of Enterprise & Competitiveness at the University of Birmingham sums it up pretty much perfectly...
Britain basically isn't broken, but if people keep telling themselves it is, that will have a negative impact on business and personal spending decisions which ultimately will move us down a path towards actually being broken.
Would anyone like to bring any evidence to the contrary, showing why and by how much we are "Broken" compared to other countries?
https://theconversation.com/britain-is-not-as-brok...
Terminator X said:
One indication of broken is the NHS surely. Another is highest taxes since WW2 and nothing to show for it.
TX.
Is the NHS broken, or have we just grown to expect too much from it? TX.
Ambulances for example. Nobody seems to want to take responsibility for themselves. They callout an ambulance when they could quite easily get themselves to A&E or the Doctors, or they call one out for something that does not require it.
People book Doctors appt's for things that do not need a doctor, a cold, a spot, any old ache or pain.
if the NHS wasn't abused in the way that it is, it would not appear to be 'Broken'.
I've never said Britain is broken, but I can see why some people think like that.
A few off-the-cuff observations.
Virtually impossible to see a GP.
Huge numbers of houses being built without the infrastructure to support them.
My sons school had a teacher leave last year, it took them 6 months to find a replacement, apparently a national shortage of teachers.
Massive increase is the numbers of homeless over the last few years
Roads not being repaired properly (or at all!)
Significant increases in cost of living while utility providers and supermarket profits soar
Property prices, buying and renting, becoming unobtainable for many
If you are in a situation where you're significantly affected by such scenarios, then it's easy to see why that thinking is prevalent.
A few off-the-cuff observations.
Virtually impossible to see a GP.
Huge numbers of houses being built without the infrastructure to support them.
My sons school had a teacher leave last year, it took them 6 months to find a replacement, apparently a national shortage of teachers.
Massive increase is the numbers of homeless over the last few years
Roads not being repaired properly (or at all!)
Significant increases in cost of living while utility providers and supermarket profits soar
Property prices, buying and renting, becoming unobtainable for many
If you are in a situation where you're significantly affected by such scenarios, then it's easy to see why that thinking is prevalent.
That's an interesting article by Prof Bryson and chimes with my own thoughts. "Broken", to me, implies a fundamental failure. However, what I think we have in Britain is "Not as good as it could and should be, and rather a curate's egg".
Example: I have been under the care of the cardiology department at my local hospital for a few years now. The care is exemplary, the communications are fine, the hospital itself is modern and well equipped and the staff seem both relaxed and motivated. Good stuff, and I've no complaints. However, my local GP practice is incompetent and fails miserably to do its job properly. So, do I consider the NHS to be "broken"? No, I don't. But it could be better in a specific area.
Many folk seem unable to do nuance. It's all or nothing, it's all binary. Britain is going to the dogs, the Tories are awful, Labour will be catastrophic, Southgate is a fool...............the truth is usually somewhere between the extremes but too many seem unable to recognise that.
Example: I have been under the care of the cardiology department at my local hospital for a few years now. The care is exemplary, the communications are fine, the hospital itself is modern and well equipped and the staff seem both relaxed and motivated. Good stuff, and I've no complaints. However, my local GP practice is incompetent and fails miserably to do its job properly. So, do I consider the NHS to be "broken"? No, I don't. But it could be better in a specific area.
Many folk seem unable to do nuance. It's all or nothing, it's all binary. Britain is going to the dogs, the Tories are awful, Labour will be catastrophic, Southgate is a fool...............the truth is usually somewhere between the extremes but too many seem unable to recognise that.
Hants PHer said:
...Many folk seem unable to do nuance. It's all or nothing, it's all binary. Britain is going to the dogs, the Tories are awful, Labour will be catastrophic, Southgate is a fool...............the truth is usually somewhere between the extremes but too many seem unable to recognise that.
Nicely put.It's probably more subjective than actual fact. Take the NHS. It's still a great institution but run pretty much into the ground. Waiting times in A&E are unbelievable now for example.
If we look at housing. I moved out of my parents' house at 17, had my own place at 21 and bought my first house at 25. I read somewhere the average first time buying is now around 30 years old due to house prices and mortgage costs.
Cost of living is so much higher than wages can align with in a lot of cases.
I remember growing up in the 70's and 80's and we were not a diverse culture. Racism was normal and accepted. Thankfully things improved massively but lately, I see an increase in intolerance of foreigners and ethnic minorities. Again, subjective.
We're a lot more divided now on things like Brexit, conspiracy theories, etc. all helped by social media content and algorithms.
Just a few examples off the top of my head but when I hear the phrase, I often look back to better times and think in some ways, Britain is not what it was. Maybe better in other ways but not fully broken.
Oh yeah, and pot holes!
If we look at housing. I moved out of my parents' house at 17, had my own place at 21 and bought my first house at 25. I read somewhere the average first time buying is now around 30 years old due to house prices and mortgage costs.
Cost of living is so much higher than wages can align with in a lot of cases.
I remember growing up in the 70's and 80's and we were not a diverse culture. Racism was normal and accepted. Thankfully things improved massively but lately, I see an increase in intolerance of foreigners and ethnic minorities. Again, subjective.
We're a lot more divided now on things like Brexit, conspiracy theories, etc. all helped by social media content and algorithms.
Just a few examples off the top of my head but when I hear the phrase, I often look back to better times and think in some ways, Britain is not what it was. Maybe better in other ways but not fully broken.
Oh yeah, and pot holes!
You seem determined to have your view re-enforced on this topic OP, but at the end of the day this is a subjective opinion that will be driven by the huge difference in everyone's lived experiences and how they define broken in this context will vary considerably I'm sure.
The article you link to also offers very little to support your argument IMHO. Comparing us with other countries on specific cherry picked metrics and blaming things like war and climate change in no way refutes the claim being made.
The article you link to also offers very little to support your argument IMHO. Comparing us with other countries on specific cherry picked metrics and blaming things like war and climate change in no way refutes the claim being made.
super7 said:
Terminator X said:
One indication of broken is the NHS surely. Another is highest taxes since WW2 and nothing to show for it.
TX.
Is the NHS broken, or have we just grown to expect too much from it? TX.
Ambulances for example. Nobody seems to want to take responsibility for themselves. They callout an ambulance when they could quite easily get themselves to A&E or the Doctors, or they call one out for something that does not require it.
People book Doctors appt's for things that do not need a doctor, a cold, a spot, any old ache or pain.
if the NHS wasn't abused in the way that it is, it would not appear to be 'Broken'.
The idea that "free" is good is bonkers it just means people take the piss. Sadly hospitals don't kick out malingerers and neither do GP surgeries, but then again they shouldn't have to. Use your pharmacist, use 111 and if they tell you you need to be seen, then go to hospital or doctor. And make your own way their, you don't always need an ambulance.
The NHS is like a cake mix that is too big for the tin. Tries to accommodate everyone and everything and fails. Then everyone and everything ends up pissed off.
super7 said:
Terminator X said:
One indication of broken is the NHS surely. Another is highest taxes since WW2 and nothing to show for it.
TX.
Is the NHS broken, or have we just grown to expect too much from it? TX.
Ambulances for example. Nobody seems to want to take responsibility for themselves. They callout an ambulance when they could quite easily get themselves to A&E or the Doctors, or they call one out for something that does not require it.
People book Doctors appt's for things that do not need a doctor, a cold, a spot, any old ache or pain.
if the NHS wasn't abused in the way that it is, it would not appear to be 'Broken'.
Also, I am diabetic. I haven't seen my diabetes nurse face to face since before Covid. I needed to see her urgently, but the best I got was an untrained nurse in another town, who had no idea what she was looking at. Trying to get a regular appointment is all but impossible, with the only option seemingly a phone appointment.
Alternatively, my Mother lives in adjoining county and gets almost immediate access to NHS services, even being referred to private facilities if the NHS can't get her in quick enough. So yes, the NHS is broken, just not everywhere.
FiF said:
I'd agree with much of that. There are some who take every opportunity to talk the country down, usually to make some obscure and often irrelevant to the facts political point. At which moment another will pipe up to show that in comparison to other nations around the world Britain is no different, even at times performing slightly better. So the Professor is correct in suggesting political discourse is broken.
However there are issues which are clearly not satisfactory and no sight of improvement and the extent of this varies wildly from region to region and even within more local areas.
I'd my area broken? Nope. There's a few warts but in general not broken.
Part of the problem is that some public services just don't deliver.
Real life example. Without going into the specifics we have a situation which is absolutely the responsibility of council services to take action, yet they're constantly trying to fob it off to the police despite it being utterly clear not a police matter. Pisses people off.
However there are issues which are clearly not satisfactory and no sight of improvement and the extent of this varies wildly from region to region and even within more local areas.
I'd my area broken? Nope. There's a few warts but in general not broken.
Part of the problem is that some public services just don't deliver.
Real life example. Without going into the specifics we have a situation which is absolutely the responsibility of council services to take action, yet they're constantly trying to fob it off to the police despite it being utterly clear not a police matter. Pisses people off.
Terminator X said:
One indication of broken is the NHS surely. Another is highest taxes since WW2 and nothing to show for it.
TX.
That precisely illustrates my point!TX.
What about the NHS is broken, compared to other countries, compared to this country in previous decades etc?
Same for taxes. How do services received per tax dollar here compare to other countries?
All over NP&E there are people threatening to leave the UK because it's "broken" but where are they going instead, and how broken or otherwise is their destination?
Hants PHer said:
That's an interesting article by Prof Bryson and chimes with my own thoughts. "Broken", to me, implies a fundamental failure. However, what I think we have in Britain is "Not as good as it could and should be, and rather a curate's egg".
Example: I have been under the care of the cardiology department at my local hospital for a few years now. The care is exemplary, the communications are fine, the hospital itself is modern and well equipped and the staff seem both relaxed and motivated. Good stuff, and I've no complaints. However, my local GP practice is incompetent and fails miserably to do its job properly. So, do I consider the NHS to be "broken"? No, I don't. But it could be better in a specific area.
Many folk seem unable to do nuance. It's all or nothing, it's all binary. Britain is going to the dogs, the Tories are awful, Labour will be catastrophic, Southgate is a fool...............the truth is usually somewhere between the extremes but too many seem unable to recognise that.
Do like that suggestion above "not as good as could be... bit of a curates egg"Example: I have been under the care of the cardiology department at my local hospital for a few years now. The care is exemplary, the communications are fine, the hospital itself is modern and well equipped and the staff seem both relaxed and motivated. Good stuff, and I've no complaints. However, my local GP practice is incompetent and fails miserably to do its job properly. So, do I consider the NHS to be "broken"? No, I don't. But it could be better in a specific area.
Many folk seem unable to do nuance. It's all or nothing, it's all binary. Britain is going to the dogs, the Tories are awful, Labour will be catastrophic, Southgate is a fool...............the truth is usually somewhere between the extremes but too many seem unable to recognise that.
Focusing on NHS for a moment. Two situations.
I had a it of emergency where needed medical advice on a Saturday morning. GP practice only taking online requests, dealt with in 48 hours was the promise.
Rang 111, they dealt with things competently, few questions were a bit off the wall but so what. Got me to handle things, confirmed that things were under control. Arranged for a doctor to call back within a certain time frame, which they did later than promised. But went through the checks how things had developed and that they and I were satisfied with situation. Advised contact GP on Monday. Did so online, face to face visit, GP checked, altered some medication. When I'd said why contacted 111 rather than 999 observed that in years previously it absolutely would have been a 999 call, ambulance sent and into A&E for a closer look. Today would have been waiting hours and tieing up a resource for longer. In summary not broken but could do better.
2nd account took Mrs F to GP over something daughter and I have been trying to get her to refer for ages. GP does examination decides need to refer, waiting list 9-12 months. Agree we will go private. Agree on hospital, he writes referral letter. I phone to try and get appointment, eventually speak to a call handler somewhere in Scotland who is worse than a chocolate teapot. Advises contact the treatment unit direct to book. Their phone system is also hopeless, leave a message we'll get back to you in 24 hours. 7 days later fark all contact. Can I say that is broken?
Britain is still the greatest country of earth as far as I am concerned and I wouldn’t want to have been born anywhere else. But we have been through a period of political instability and chaos largely caused by Brexit, our armed forces have been hollowed out and most of our public services are operating at performance levels that are unacceptable. As a population we are also chronically unhealthy and literally eating ourselves to death.
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