Interesting views on immigration and its importance
Discussion
Last week I went to a debate on whether or not immigration was a good thing for Britain. One of the people speaking against it was Konstantin Kisin, a Russian-Jewish migrant himself. One of the reasons he gave for believing that immigration was bad for Britain was that when he first arrived here in 1994 only 3% of the British public thought that immigration was one of the most important issues facing Britain, yet by 2015, this had risen to 56%.
I was intrigued as to why, given we are in 2024 now, he would very specifically quote the range from 1994 to 2015. Why not 1994-2024, which would be a nice round 3 decades? I therefore went looking for the source behind the stat, and it turns out to be from a monthly Ipsos poll that asks people what they think the most important issue is facing the country. I found it on this Migration Observatory page, and the graph (fig. 3) looks like this...
So, looking at that in isolation, it's pretty reasonable to assume that he only went up to 2015 because after 2015 the importance of immigration to the British public fell off a cliff! As recently as April 2022 it was back down to 6% - lower than it was way back in 1997, which arguably undermines his position somewhat.
The next thing I found really interesting was that despite immigration having previously peaked at almost 50% in 2007, it was back down to 22% in December 2012. What happened, then, to take immigration as the most important issue for the British public from near enough the lowest point in a decade to its highest recorded point, well over twice as high under three years later? For that, I suspect, we can look to January 2013, when Cameron first announced that there would be a Brexit referendum, and the Leave campaign PR machines went into overdrive. Remember, this isn't tracking what Brits think about immigration alone, it's how they perceive it in relation to other issues impacting the country.
It's hardly surprising that the relative importance fell off a cliff once all the coverage moved firstly onto how Brexit was going to be delivered and then onto Covid, nor that blowing lots of dog whistles in the first place raised the prominence of it in the first place.
Where it gets really fascinating - and somewhat weird! - is in looking at how Brits feel about immigration over time when it is viewed in isolation, which you can also see on that page in fig. 2.
So on this one we can see that back in 1994 when, as Kisin correctly stated, just 3% of the British public thought that Immigration was the most important issue facing the country, another poll by the very same polling company found that 64% of Brits agreed with the statement "There are too many immigrants in Britain", whilst by 2015 when immigration hit its peak of 56% of people thinking it the most important political issue facing Britain, the percentage of Brits who agreed with that statement of "there are too many immigrants in Britain" had actually fallen slightly to 60%!
From there on in, it gets even more fascinating! As we all know, the country voted Leave in 2016, we left the EU in 2020, and with the exception of that obvious Covid blip, absolutely nothing has happened to reduce immigration! In fact, far from reducing, it has accelerated to record levels over the past couple of years!
In spite of that and all the press coverage of Rwanda and small boats alongside the overall net migration figures, by the time the graphs were published in June last year, not only had immigration still only climbed back up to 21% of people viewing it as the single most important issue facing the country, the answers given against immigration - not just to Ispos but to all the pollsters - to the questions of whether there are too many immigrants here, whether we should let more in and the like have all also fallen off a cliff!
Ipsos remains the most frequent pollster, and when they asked in 2015 whether the number of immigrants coming to Britain should be increased or reduced, 65% said "reduced". That has subsequently fallen year on year in every year since, and in 2023 only 42% thought it should be reduced?!?!
My personal views on immigration are no secret on here. Not only do I think that on balance it has been largely a good thing, and that without it - given our falling birth rate and ageing population - we would've been screwed without it, I also think that unless we can increase our birth rate, it's inevitable. There are, of course, lots of other people on PH who take very much the opposite view, think immigration is bad for Britain and want to see it dramatically reduced or reversed, which is a view they are entitled to hold as well.
Regardless of whether or not you agree with immigration, however, I would be fascinated to know if anyone can explain what to me are complete and utter contradictions in these results???
That the relative importance of immigration in voters' minds - or Covid, the NHS, perceived softness of sentencing, cost of living, energy dependency or anything else you care to think of - can jump up and down like a yoyo as it does in fig. 3 I can fully understand, as people will always respond one way or another to what they most get bombarded with in the news.
The one I just cannot begin to wrap my head around is the outright change in attitude to immigration and immigrants as a whole. I think immigration is both inevitable and mostly a good thing, yet even I would've accepted - after two years of all time record levels of immigration - that we might have seen an increase in opposition to it, and I could even sympathise with people feeling that even if I don't, but how on earth do I even being to get my head around the fact that post-Brexit, people seem to have made a complete U-turn on their attitudes towards immigration despite the fact that absolutely nothing has been done to actually reduce the numbers???
I am totally and utterly flummoxed by these numbers!
I was intrigued as to why, given we are in 2024 now, he would very specifically quote the range from 1994 to 2015. Why not 1994-2024, which would be a nice round 3 decades? I therefore went looking for the source behind the stat, and it turns out to be from a monthly Ipsos poll that asks people what they think the most important issue is facing the country. I found it on this Migration Observatory page, and the graph (fig. 3) looks like this...
So, looking at that in isolation, it's pretty reasonable to assume that he only went up to 2015 because after 2015 the importance of immigration to the British public fell off a cliff! As recently as April 2022 it was back down to 6% - lower than it was way back in 1997, which arguably undermines his position somewhat.
The next thing I found really interesting was that despite immigration having previously peaked at almost 50% in 2007, it was back down to 22% in December 2012. What happened, then, to take immigration as the most important issue for the British public from near enough the lowest point in a decade to its highest recorded point, well over twice as high under three years later? For that, I suspect, we can look to January 2013, when Cameron first announced that there would be a Brexit referendum, and the Leave campaign PR machines went into overdrive. Remember, this isn't tracking what Brits think about immigration alone, it's how they perceive it in relation to other issues impacting the country.
It's hardly surprising that the relative importance fell off a cliff once all the coverage moved firstly onto how Brexit was going to be delivered and then onto Covid, nor that blowing lots of dog whistles in the first place raised the prominence of it in the first place.
Where it gets really fascinating - and somewhat weird! - is in looking at how Brits feel about immigration over time when it is viewed in isolation, which you can also see on that page in fig. 2.
So on this one we can see that back in 1994 when, as Kisin correctly stated, just 3% of the British public thought that Immigration was the most important issue facing the country, another poll by the very same polling company found that 64% of Brits agreed with the statement "There are too many immigrants in Britain", whilst by 2015 when immigration hit its peak of 56% of people thinking it the most important political issue facing Britain, the percentage of Brits who agreed with that statement of "there are too many immigrants in Britain" had actually fallen slightly to 60%!
From there on in, it gets even more fascinating! As we all know, the country voted Leave in 2016, we left the EU in 2020, and with the exception of that obvious Covid blip, absolutely nothing has happened to reduce immigration! In fact, far from reducing, it has accelerated to record levels over the past couple of years!
In spite of that and all the press coverage of Rwanda and small boats alongside the overall net migration figures, by the time the graphs were published in June last year, not only had immigration still only climbed back up to 21% of people viewing it as the single most important issue facing the country, the answers given against immigration - not just to Ispos but to all the pollsters - to the questions of whether there are too many immigrants here, whether we should let more in and the like have all also fallen off a cliff!
Ipsos remains the most frequent pollster, and when they asked in 2015 whether the number of immigrants coming to Britain should be increased or reduced, 65% said "reduced". That has subsequently fallen year on year in every year since, and in 2023 only 42% thought it should be reduced?!?!
My personal views on immigration are no secret on here. Not only do I think that on balance it has been largely a good thing, and that without it - given our falling birth rate and ageing population - we would've been screwed without it, I also think that unless we can increase our birth rate, it's inevitable. There are, of course, lots of other people on PH who take very much the opposite view, think immigration is bad for Britain and want to see it dramatically reduced or reversed, which is a view they are entitled to hold as well.
Regardless of whether or not you agree with immigration, however, I would be fascinated to know if anyone can explain what to me are complete and utter contradictions in these results???
That the relative importance of immigration in voters' minds - or Covid, the NHS, perceived softness of sentencing, cost of living, energy dependency or anything else you care to think of - can jump up and down like a yoyo as it does in fig. 3 I can fully understand, as people will always respond one way or another to what they most get bombarded with in the news.
The one I just cannot begin to wrap my head around is the outright change in attitude to immigration and immigrants as a whole. I think immigration is both inevitable and mostly a good thing, yet even I would've accepted - after two years of all time record levels of immigration - that we might have seen an increase in opposition to it, and I could even sympathise with people feeling that even if I don't, but how on earth do I even being to get my head around the fact that post-Brexit, people seem to have made a complete U-turn on their attitudes towards immigration despite the fact that absolutely nothing has been done to actually reduce the numbers???
I am totally and utterly flummoxed by these numbers!
Immigration has been weaponised by this government despite being in the position to do something about it but it suits their narrative to have someone to point to to blame for poor performance elsewhere.
Lack of housing? Nothing to do with planning constraints, nimbyism and inertia to change, no it’s immigrants. Poor infrastructure? No, nothing to do with failing to invest, to improve existing services, shorttermism and failing to plan ahead. No, it’s immigrants. Etc,etc.
It’s also quite amusing that those who are pretty vocal in their opposition to those coming in focus solely on a few tens of thousands coming in by irregular means whilst wilfully ignoring the hundreds of thousands coming in by regular means.
Look at the Rwanda threads. Cheerleaders point to it being a solution and neatly avoiding the fact that only a few hundred will be processed each year at enormous cost but, but something something deterrent. Deterrence my hairy arse. Migrants can do maths and take their chances accordingly.
Immigration is just a bogeyman perpetuated by the government and stoked by a compliant right wing press. Had the media been silent on the issue most complaining wouldn’t even notice the immigrants were there as they smash their keyboards in fury from their leafy little enclaves.
Lack of housing? Nothing to do with planning constraints, nimbyism and inertia to change, no it’s immigrants. Poor infrastructure? No, nothing to do with failing to invest, to improve existing services, shorttermism and failing to plan ahead. No, it’s immigrants. Etc,etc.
It’s also quite amusing that those who are pretty vocal in their opposition to those coming in focus solely on a few tens of thousands coming in by irregular means whilst wilfully ignoring the hundreds of thousands coming in by regular means.
Look at the Rwanda threads. Cheerleaders point to it being a solution and neatly avoiding the fact that only a few hundred will be processed each year at enormous cost but, but something something deterrent. Deterrence my hairy arse. Migrants can do maths and take their chances accordingly.
Immigration is just a bogeyman perpetuated by the government and stoked by a compliant right wing press. Had the media been silent on the issue most complaining wouldn’t even notice the immigrants were there as they smash their keyboards in fury from their leafy little enclaves.
Economist did a leader on immigration this week and suggested it was a UK super power, with immigrants assimilating more quickly in the UK than in similar countries, contributing better to the economy and almost immediately on a par with "natives", kids out-performing at school. Another thing they pointed out was that immigration in the last couple of decades was not leading to ghettoisation as people were choosing to live all over the country and in communities of all sizes.
Assimilation? While we have a teacher in hiding from radical Muslims.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1743624/Teacher-...
Nothing wrong with controlled immigration. Current levels are unsustainable and can only increase pressure on roads, housing, and public services.
I have been an immigrant to Canada. Before that happened it was a face to face interview at the Canadian embassy for my parents. My brother and
were there as well. My parents were a civil engineer with a job offer and a teacher.
https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/press-release/720
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1743624/Teacher-...
Nothing wrong with controlled immigration. Current levels are unsustainable and can only increase pressure on roads, housing, and public services.
I have been an immigrant to Canada. Before that happened it was a face to face interview at the Canadian embassy for my parents. My brother and
were there as well. My parents were a civil engineer with a job offer and a teacher.
https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/press-release/720
irc said:
Assimilation? While we have a teacher in hiding from radical Muslims.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1743624/Teacher-...
Nothing wrong with controlled immigration. Current levels are unsustainable and can only increase pressure on roads, housing, and public services.
I have been an immigrant to Canada. Before that happened it was a face to face interview at the Canadian embassy for my parents. My brother and
were there as well. My parents were a civil engineer with a job offer and a teacher.
https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/press-release/720
Well done, you've managed to decide that all Muslims are immigrants, and to tar millions of people based on the actions of a handful in a single sentence. There's a word for this kind of behaviour. https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1743624/Teacher-...
Nothing wrong with controlled immigration. Current levels are unsustainable and can only increase pressure on roads, housing, and public services.
I have been an immigrant to Canada. Before that happened it was a face to face interview at the Canadian embassy for my parents. My brother and
were there as well. My parents were a civil engineer with a job offer and a teacher.
https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/press-release/720
And then you uncritically post a link to the embarrassment that is MigrationWatch, an organisation that is persistently wrong about the only thing it's supposed to know about.
irc said:
Assimilation? While we have a teacher in hiding from radical Muslims.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1743624/Teacher-...
Nothing wrong with controlled immigration. Current levels are unsustainable and can only increase pressure on roads, housing, and public services.
What does this have to do with immigration? There have been Muslims in this country for hundreds of years. https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1743624/Teacher-...
Nothing wrong with controlled immigration. Current levels are unsustainable and can only increase pressure on roads, housing, and public services.
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: Weaponised is right.
This is pretty much Government policy.
The poster you reference suggests there are a range of issues manifesting themselves in ways that over simplify the issue and/or diverge from the underlying causes. Unfortunately many lack the tools - which can be both intellectually understanding and/or means to voice protest - that the immigration topic becomes an ugly outlet.This is pretty much Government policy.
By posting that comic, portraying the one side as only being stupid and led, you too fall in the trap of simplifying things into nice manageable bites and are as much the useful idiot as those you mock.
ETA also a lovely example of feel good prejudiced propaganda for the "right type" too. The cookie guy, well of course he's a Jew. And the thicko construction worker of course, because as all white collar liberals know all trades are all thickos innit. Yeah way to school us all on prejudices champ.
Edited by Teddy Lop on Sunday 24th March 13:52
Teddy Lop said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Weaponised is right.
This is pretty much Government policy.
The poster you reference suggests there are a range of issues manifesting themselves in ways that over simplify the issue and/or diverge from the underlying causes. Unfortunately many lack the tools - which can be both intellectually understanding and/or means to voice protest - that the immigration topic becomes an ugly outlet.This is pretty much Government policy.
By posting that comic, portraying the one side as only being stupid and led, you too fall in the trap of simplifying things into nice manageable bites and are as much the useful idiot as those you mock.
ETA also a lovely example of feel good prejudiced propaganda for the "right type" too. The cookie guy, well of course he's a Jew. And the thicko construction worker of course, because as all white collar liberals know all trades are all thickos innit. Yeah way to school us all on prejudices champ.
Edited by Teddy Lop on Sunday 24th March 13:52
Teddy Lop said:
The poster you reference suggests there are a range of issues manifesting themselves in ways that over simplify the issue and/or diverge from the underlying causes. Unfortunately many lack the tools - which can be both intellectually understanding and/or means to voice protest - that the immigration topic becomes an ugly outlet.
By posting that comic, portraying the one side as only being stupid and led, you too fall in the trap of simplifying things into nice manageable bites and are as much the useful idiot as those you mock.
ETA also a lovely example of feel good prejudiced propaganda for the "right type" too. The cookie guy, well of course he's a Jew. And the thicko construction worker of course, because as all white collar liberals know all trades are all thickos innit. Yeah way to school us all on prejudices champ.
The cookie guy I think is more Rupert murdoch .By posting that comic, portraying the one side as only being stupid and led, you too fall in the trap of simplifying things into nice manageable bites and are as much the useful idiot as those you mock.
ETA also a lovely example of feel good prejudiced propaganda for the "right type" too. The cookie guy, well of course he's a Jew. And the thicko construction worker of course, because as all white collar liberals know all trades are all thickos innit. Yeah way to school us all on prejudices champ.
Edited by Teddy Lop on Sunday 24th March 13:52
Teddy Lop said:
The poster you reference suggests there are a range of issues manifesting themselves in ways that over simplify the issue and/or diverge from the underlying causes. Unfortunately many lack the tools - which can be both intellectually understanding and/or means to voice protest - that the immigration topic becomes an ugly outlet.
By posting that comic, portraying the one side as only being stupid and led, you too fall in the trap of simplifying things into nice manageable bites and are as much the useful idiot as those you mock.
ETA also a lovely example of feel good prejudiced propaganda for the "right type" too. The cookie guy, well of course he's a Jew. And the thicko construction worker of course, because as all white collar liberals know all trades are all thickos innit. Yeah way to school us all on prejudices champ.
I think the ‘cookie guy’ is supposed to be Rupert Murdoch, I don’t think he’s Jewish. You’re right to point out that immigration is a difficult and complex issue, it splits families and friends and the social and cultural issues are hot potatoes, better to stick to the economic and political side of things if you can. By posting that comic, portraying the one side as only being stupid and led, you too fall in the trap of simplifying things into nice manageable bites and are as much the useful idiot as those you mock.
ETA also a lovely example of feel good prejudiced propaganda for the "right type" too. The cookie guy, well of course he's a Jew. And the thicko construction worker of course, because as all white collar liberals know all trades are all thickos innit. Yeah way to school us all on prejudices champ.
Edited by Teddy Lop on Sunday 24th March 13:52
Teddy Lop said:
ETA also a lovely example of feel good prejudiced propaganda for the "right type" too. The cookie guy, well of course he's a Jew. And the thicko construction worker of course, because as all white collar liberals know all trades are all thickos innit. Yeah way to school us all on prejudices champ.
The 'cookie guy' is (clearly) Rupert Murdoch, who isn't Jewish, so perhaps do some self-reflection on what made you come to that conclusionEdited by Teddy Lop on Sunday 24th March 13:52
The cartoon is critiquing the message that Murdoch's media pumps out, not the recipients.
The construction worker isn't portrayed as a 'thicko'. He's not obviously falling for Murdoch's line, but is pondering his answer to the 'warning'.
The cartoon is by an Australian artist called Denis Lushch, and is titled "The Bulls
t Weaver". Lushch said that he hoped to illustrate the absurdity of the 'Murdoch line' and that workers in Australia (and elsewhere) would realise that they have more in common with the immigrants they are served up as a target than the media billionaires who claim to protect and speak for them. Apart from that...a great bit of media analysis!
Teddy Lop said:
The poster you reference suggests there are a range of issues manifesting themselves in ways that over simplify the issue and/or diverge from the underlying causes. Unfortunately many lack the tools - which can be both intellectually understanding and/or means to voice protest - that the immigration topic becomes an ugly outlet.
By posting that comic, portraying the one side as only being stupid and led, you too fall in the trap of simplifying things into nice manageable bites and are as much the useful idiot as those you mock.
ETA also a lovely example of feel good prejudiced propaganda for the "right type" too. The cookie guy, well of course he's a Jew. And the thicko construction worker of course, because as all white collar liberals know all trades are all thickos innit. Yeah way to school us all on prejudices champ.
Love the way you actually edited it to add that extra rubbish By posting that comic, portraying the one side as only being stupid and led, you too fall in the trap of simplifying things into nice manageable bites and are as much the useful idiot as those you mock.
ETA also a lovely example of feel good prejudiced propaganda for the "right type" too. The cookie guy, well of course he's a Jew. And the thicko construction worker of course, because as all white collar liberals know all trades are all thickos innit. Yeah way to school us all on prejudices champ.
Edited by Teddy Lop on Sunday 24th March 13:52
The "cookie guy" is Murdoch and the media telling you all the bad stuff is because of migrants so don't you even try going there with that "of course he's a Jew" rubbish.
The "thicko construction worker" is just the "working class white man" take your pick which one there are enough of them moaning on here about how hard done by they are because of migration.
Is it a bit lazy? Yes.
Will it make anyone reflect and possibly change their minds? Probably not.
Teddy Lop said:
See, this is the problem in a nutshell.
Y'all line up squealing over the error in identifying the guy in your reveared cartoon, and not a single attempt to address the meat and potatoes of my post.
And you think you're the smart ones
The meat seemed grey and stringy and the potatoes small and with weird green bits.Y'all line up squealing over the error in identifying the guy in your reveared cartoon, and not a single attempt to address the meat and potatoes of my post.
And you think you're the smart ones
I thought I did address the point, such as it was; the cartoon isn't demonising the ordinary worker either by obvious interpretation or the stated intent of the artist. It's suggesting they have agency and are capable of, and deserve, better than being fed a load of selective and dishonest nonsense by people who earn more than they do per year every day...in interest.
If you mean the bit about how many people most affected by the negatives of immigration often don't have the means and ways to analyse and communicate their concerns and so often end up in cases like Gillian Duffy, turning to common simplistic and inaccurate tropes when they get a chance to vent, then I'm right with you. But the diet of half-truths, distortions and empty rhetoric served up by Murdoch et. Al. is part of the problem and certainly not the solution.
Teddy Lop said:
See, this is the problem in a nutshell.
Y'all line up squealing over the error in identifying the guy in your reveared cartoon, and not a single attempt to address the meat and potatoes of my post.
And you think you're the smart ones
Hey Ted, I think everyone reading your post got the meat and potatoes of it. Y'all line up squealing over the error in identifying the guy in your reveared cartoon, and not a single attempt to address the meat and potatoes of my post.
And you think you're the smart ones
Teddy Lop said:
See, this is the problem in a nutshell.
Y'all line up squealing over the error in identifying the guy in your reveared cartoon, and not a single attempt to address the meat and potatoes of my post.
And you think you're the smart ones
Are you a thicko construction worker by any chance mate?Y'all line up squealing over the error in identifying the guy in your reveared cartoon, and not a single attempt to address the meat and potatoes of my post.
And you think you're the smart ones
Teddy Lop said:
See, this is the problem in a nutshell.
Y'all line up squealing over the error in identifying the guy in your reveared cartoon, and not a single attempt to address the meat and potatoes of my post.
And you think you're the smart ones
I don’t think anyone is squeeling Ted, just pointing out that one of the planks in your argument got sawn in half. I think Chevron has given you a pretty clear and fulsome answer, you’ve misinterpreted the cartoon, just as you have the various responses to your post. I don’t think anyone here can offer you further assistance. Y'all line up squealing over the error in identifying the guy in your reveared cartoon, and not a single attempt to address the meat and potatoes of my post.
And you think you're the smart ones
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