Swinger sueing the NHS
Discussion
Hugo Stiglitz said:
Why did she get drunk & dive into the shallow end?
king idiot and still expect an appropriate level of care presumably.Hugo Stiglitz said:
I am guessing the crew had no reason to suspect she broke her neck..Hugo Stiglitz said:
If there were no obvious signs of a head injury and no witnesses telling the paramedics what happened then it's just unfortunate; the injury could have occurred when she hit the bottom of the pool or when lifted out of the pool by bystanders as easily as when being handled by the paramedics.ChocolateFrog said:
Seems reasonable.
Probably not best practice to drop someone who has just broken their neck.
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Yes regardless of being a "swinger" she has been left paralysed and, if the paramedics were at fault, should be compensated. Though, as above, that would need to be proven. Probably not best practice to drop someone who has just broken their neck.
.
I've done enough pre-hospital trauma and been part of enough trauma teams in hospitals as a surgeon to immediately know that, given the mechanism of injury, the cervical spine (neck/c-spine) should've been protected immediately, even if exact details and force couldn't be established, and especially with an intoxicated patient who is at a higher risk of being unaware of an injury. Unless there were some very unusual circumstances, this sounds like it may have been an avoidable outcome with the correct standard of care. I'd be very surprised if the outcome is any different to that.
Cause of the injury has absolutely no bearing on the standard of care that should be provided to the patient in front of you. Yes, I understand that drunken antics annoy everyone and usually deserve little to no sympathy; however, being paralysed below the neck for life is a bit harsh, especially if it could've been avoided with correct medical care. I've saved the lives of several criminals, drunk and druggies as well as ordinary people. It wasn't my job to decide who was worthy of saving and who wasn't. Everyone should receive the correct treatment.
Unfortunately, while the sensationalised headline gathers interest and whips up a frenzy of opinion, it also helps to further bury the uncomfortable truth: not only is the NHS going down the pan, so is the training of all the professionals who work in it, including doctors, nurses, paramedics, everyone. Inexperienced people without the requisite knowledge and training are being given jobs and responsibilities beyond their capabilities, and consequently mistakes like this are happening on a regular basis. I am aware of several deaths due to patients being seen by people with lower levels of qualifications than they should have. That should be what's being investigated here. What were the qualifications of the crew that attended? Not all ambulance crew are paramedics and some do not even have a single paramedic in their crew. Just because the Wail calls them paramedics doesn't mean they actually are. How long had they been qualified? How long did it take them to get the incident? Who saw the patient when they arrived at the hospital and how was the spine examined and cleared? These will be examined in the case at the court, but I suspect they'll be too boring to report.
Cause of the injury has absolutely no bearing on the standard of care that should be provided to the patient in front of you. Yes, I understand that drunken antics annoy everyone and usually deserve little to no sympathy; however, being paralysed below the neck for life is a bit harsh, especially if it could've been avoided with correct medical care. I've saved the lives of several criminals, drunk and druggies as well as ordinary people. It wasn't my job to decide who was worthy of saving and who wasn't. Everyone should receive the correct treatment.
Unfortunately, while the sensationalised headline gathers interest and whips up a frenzy of opinion, it also helps to further bury the uncomfortable truth: not only is the NHS going down the pan, so is the training of all the professionals who work in it, including doctors, nurses, paramedics, everyone. Inexperienced people without the requisite knowledge and training are being given jobs and responsibilities beyond their capabilities, and consequently mistakes like this are happening on a regular basis. I am aware of several deaths due to patients being seen by people with lower levels of qualifications than they should have. That should be what's being investigated here. What were the qualifications of the crew that attended? Not all ambulance crew are paramedics and some do not even have a single paramedic in their crew. Just because the Wail calls them paramedics doesn't mean they actually are. How long had they been qualified? How long did it take them to get the incident? Who saw the patient when they arrived at the hospital and how was the spine examined and cleared? These will be examined in the case at the court, but I suspect they'll be too boring to report.
QuickQuack said:
I've done enough pre-hospital trauma and been part of enough trauma teams in hospitals as a surgeon to immediately know that, given the mechanism of injury, the cervical spine (neck/c-spine) should've been protected immediately, even if exact details and force couldn't be established, and especially with an intoxicated patient who is at a higher risk of being unaware of an injury. Unless there were some very unusual circumstances, this sounds like it may have been an avoidable outcome with the correct standard of care. I'd be very surprised if the outcome is any different to that.
Cause of the injury has absolutely no bearing on the standard of care that should be provided to the patient in front of you. Yes, I understand that drunken antics annoy everyone and usually deserve little to no sympathy; however, being paralysed below the neck for life is a bit harsh, especially if it could've been avoided with correct medical care. I've saved the lives of several criminals, drunk and druggies as well as ordinary people. It wasn't my job to decide who was worthy of saving and who wasn't. Everyone should receive the correct treatment.
Unfortunately, while the sensationalised headline gathers interest and whips up a frenzy of opinion, it also helps to further bury the uncomfortable truth: not only is the NHS going down the pan, so is the training of all the professionals who work in it, including doctors, nurses, paramedics, everyone. Inexperienced people without the requisite knowledge and training are being given jobs and responsibilities beyond their capabilities, and consequently mistakes like this are happening on a regular basis. I am aware of several deaths due to patients being seen by people with lower levels of qualifications than they should have. That should be what's being investigated here. What were the qualifications of the crew that attended? Not all ambulance crew are paramedics and some do not even have a single paramedic in their crew. Just because the Wail calls them paramedics doesn't mean they actually are. How long had they been qualified? How long did it take them to get the incident? Who saw the patient when they arrived at the hospital and how was the spine examined and cleared? These will be examined in the case at the court, but I suspect they'll be too boring to report.
Very good post Cause of the injury has absolutely no bearing on the standard of care that should be provided to the patient in front of you. Yes, I understand that drunken antics annoy everyone and usually deserve little to no sympathy; however, being paralysed below the neck for life is a bit harsh, especially if it could've been avoided with correct medical care. I've saved the lives of several criminals, drunk and druggies as well as ordinary people. It wasn't my job to decide who was worthy of saving and who wasn't. Everyone should receive the correct treatment.
Unfortunately, while the sensationalised headline gathers interest and whips up a frenzy of opinion, it also helps to further bury the uncomfortable truth: not only is the NHS going down the pan, so is the training of all the professionals who work in it, including doctors, nurses, paramedics, everyone. Inexperienced people without the requisite knowledge and training are being given jobs and responsibilities beyond their capabilities, and consequently mistakes like this are happening on a regular basis. I am aware of several deaths due to patients being seen by people with lower levels of qualifications than they should have. That should be what's being investigated here. What were the qualifications of the crew that attended? Not all ambulance crew are paramedics and some do not even have a single paramedic in their crew. Just because the Wail calls them paramedics doesn't mean they actually are. How long had they been qualified? How long did it take them to get the incident? Who saw the patient when they arrived at the hospital and how was the spine examined and cleared? These will be examined in the case at the court, but I suspect they'll be too boring to report.
iirc in the northwest they have at times used non nhs ambulances to meet demand, sometimes from the charity sector like the Red Cross/St Johns etc
Also some events/club nights have their own medical teams on site
(Not saying this was the case here)
QuickQuack said:
I've done enough pre-hospital trauma and been part of enough trauma teams in hospitals as a surgeon to immediately know that, given the mechanism of injury, the cervical spine (neck/c-spine) should've been protected immediately, even if exact details and force couldn't be established, and especially with an intoxicated patient who is at a higher risk of being unaware of an injury. Unless there were some very unusual circumstances, this sounds like it may have been an avoidable outcome with the correct standard of care. I'd be very surprised if the outcome is any different to that.
Cause of the injury has absolutely no bearing on the standard of care that should be provided to the patient in front of you. Yes, I understand that drunken antics annoy everyone and usually deserve little to no sympathy; however, being paralysed below the neck for life is a bit harsh, especially if it could've been avoided with correct medical care. I've saved the lives of several criminals, drunk and druggies as well as ordinary people. It wasn't my job to decide who was worthy of saving and who wasn't. Everyone should receive the correct treatment.
Unfortunately, while the sensationalised headline gathers interest and whips up a frenzy of opinion, it also helps to further bury the uncomfortable truth: not only is the NHS going down the pan, so is the training of all the professionals who work in it, including doctors, nurses, paramedics, everyone. Inexperienced people without the requisite knowledge and training are being given jobs and responsibilities beyond their capabilities, and consequently mistakes like this are happening on a regular basis. I am aware of several deaths due to patients being seen by people with lower levels of qualifications than they should have. That should be what's being investigated here. What were the qualifications of the crew that attended? Not all ambulance crew are paramedics and some do not even have a single paramedic in their crew. Just because the Wail calls them paramedics doesn't mean they actually are. How long had they been qualified? How long did it take them to get the incident? Who saw the patient when they arrived at the hospital and how was the spine examined and cleared? These will be examined in the case at the court, but I suspect they'll be too boring to report.
Cause of the injury has absolutely no bearing on the standard of care that should be provided to the patient in front of you. Yes, I understand that drunken antics annoy everyone and usually deserve little to no sympathy; however, being paralysed below the neck for life is a bit harsh, especially if it could've been avoided with correct medical care. I've saved the lives of several criminals, drunk and druggies as well as ordinary people. It wasn't my job to decide who was worthy of saving and who wasn't. Everyone should receive the correct treatment.
Unfortunately, while the sensationalised headline gathers interest and whips up a frenzy of opinion, it also helps to further bury the uncomfortable truth: not only is the NHS going down the pan, so is the training of all the professionals who work in it, including doctors, nurses, paramedics, everyone. Inexperienced people without the requisite knowledge and training are being given jobs and responsibilities beyond their capabilities, and consequently mistakes like this are happening on a regular basis. I am aware of several deaths due to patients being seen by people with lower levels of qualifications than they should have. That should be what's being investigated here. What were the qualifications of the crew that attended? Not all ambulance crew are paramedics and some do not even have a single paramedic in their crew. Just because the Wail calls them paramedics doesn't mean they actually are. How long had they been qualified? How long did it take them to get the incident? Who saw the patient when they arrived at the hospital and how was the spine examined and cleared? These will be examined in the case at the court, but I suspect they'll be too boring to report.
thanks for having the guts to say what is needed to be said.If no one saw she’d dived in, and saw her just floating, is it reasonable to assume a neck/spine injury?
I assume this means, unless specifically seen (though would you take the risk?), anyone retrieved from a pool for any reason should be assumed to have a spine/neck injury?
Is that the case for lifeguard training etc too?
I assume this means, unless specifically seen (though would you take the risk?), anyone retrieved from a pool for any reason should be assumed to have a spine/neck injury?
Is that the case for lifeguard training etc too?
Mr Whippy said:
If no one saw she’d dived in, and saw her just floating, is it reasonable to assume a neck/spine injury?
I assume this means, unless specifically seen (though would you take the risk?), anyone retrieved from a pool for any reason should be assumed to have a spine/neck injury?
Is that the case for lifeguard training etc too?
It's part of the basics of dealing with any trauma - you have to establish the potential cause and mechanism of all possible injuries, and you transfer the patient to the hospital with treatment or precautions in place, which can be discarded when specific injuries are excluded. Even a relatively minor road traffic collision and complaint of neck pain will see you in a neck brace, your car transformed into a convertible by the fire brigade in no time, followed by you being carried out in a spinal board. I assume this means, unless specifically seen (though would you take the risk?), anyone retrieved from a pool for any reason should be assumed to have a spine/neck injury?
Is that the case for lifeguard training etc too?
In this case, or any case, excess alcohol and found floating in the pool = pushed in, thrown in or jumped in, followed by inability to get out. Immediate alarm bells. Shallow end, alarm bells getting louder. High value structures at risk are brain and spine, and neither head injury nor c-spine, or indeed any spinal, injury can be excluded on site due to intoxication. Keep repeating GCS, stick on a hard collar, head blocks, spinal board, convey to A&E. Oh, and don't drop the patient. That really makes things worse. If you have broken any vertabrae, but the fragments haven't moved, they may not have damaged the spinal cord. Treat it appropriately, and it'll be fine. Drop the patient, fragments suddenly move, they fully or partially transect your spinal cord, and you're paralysed.
What happens with lifeguards? Public pools with lifeguards often have no diving rules, and the pools are both observed and deeper. Therefore, lifeguards will be dealing with different scenarios, usually not involving trauma of this kind. In any case, their remit is to get the person out of the water to the side, keep them alive following an episode of drowning/near drowning, and not much beyond that. If further help is needed, an ambulance is called.
Not everyone found floating in a pool needs to be on a spinal board with a hard collar on, but very shallow water, intoxication, lack of clarity of method of entry into water, and that whatever trauma was present, it was deemed to be severe enough to require management in hospital would all be factors making me highly concerned that c-spine was at risk, and at that point, my approach would be to protect the spine unless there is a specific contraindication or a good reason not to. However, being able to make that assessment requires knowledge and experience, and then we get back to my point earlier about training.
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