Children not school ready
Discussion
Read a report this morning that a survey showed a quarter of children starting school were not toilet trained and more shockingly, 50% of parents don’t think it is their responsibility to ensure they are before they start school.
Nearly 50% of those starting can’t sit still.
A puzzling statistic though is that attainment gaps by age five are strong indicators for success, or lack of it, at GCSE. That can’t be because of what it taught in the early years as other countries (to name two that I’ve lived in, Switzerland and Denmark) have children starting school much later than the UK but children in those countries and not achieving lower scores later in their school life/university and the countries are very successful economically.
Perhaps the attainment gap reflects parental attitude towards education, family background and support in that children from families that aren’t helping them to learn basic social skills and some reading and writing before they go to school don’t provide an environment that supports learning throughout the child’s life.
Nearly 50% of those starting can’t sit still.
A puzzling statistic though is that attainment gaps by age five are strong indicators for success, or lack of it, at GCSE. That can’t be because of what it taught in the early years as other countries (to name two that I’ve lived in, Switzerland and Denmark) have children starting school much later than the UK but children in those countries and not achieving lower scores later in their school life/university and the countries are very successful economically.
Perhaps the attainment gap reflects parental attitude towards education, family background and support in that children from families that aren’t helping them to learn basic social skills and some reading and writing before they go to school don’t provide an environment that supports learning throughout the child’s life.
A recent trip to France was quite shocking.
Kids were not using mobile phones. A small point but, at meal times they were engaging with parents, talking and growing brains. Out and about they were looking around and seeing things and learning. I didn't see one single "foreign" family stuck face down in the glowing light. The social skills of the kids were markedly different to English kids, not to mention behaviour. English families in comparison there was more phone use, less conversation, less positive communication (more shouting than anything else). For the most part everyone off phones looked happy too, no depressed kids wondering what woe what going to affect them due to social media.
I'm convinced it's a disease and it starts at an early age when parents choose the TV/phone/tablet over parenting, if a kids main stimulus is moving pictures on a screen then they aren't getting prepared for any life other than sat Infront of a screen watching moving pictures.
Side note I've moved social media off my personal phone as I saw in these people something I'd come to dislike about myself. I'm a lot happier now my phone is a phone again instead of a constant distraction from life. It's been hard work to break the cycle, social media addiction, could do with patches for it.
Kids were not using mobile phones. A small point but, at meal times they were engaging with parents, talking and growing brains. Out and about they were looking around and seeing things and learning. I didn't see one single "foreign" family stuck face down in the glowing light. The social skills of the kids were markedly different to English kids, not to mention behaviour. English families in comparison there was more phone use, less conversation, less positive communication (more shouting than anything else). For the most part everyone off phones looked happy too, no depressed kids wondering what woe what going to affect them due to social media.
I'm convinced it's a disease and it starts at an early age when parents choose the TV/phone/tablet over parenting, if a kids main stimulus is moving pictures on a screen then they aren't getting prepared for any life other than sat Infront of a screen watching moving pictures.
Side note I've moved social media off my personal phone as I saw in these people something I'd come to dislike about myself. I'm a lot happier now my phone is a phone again instead of a constant distraction from life. It's been hard work to break the cycle, social media addiction, could do with patches for it.
It could be both parents (or the only parent) working. When I grew up in the 80s, my mum had to quit her job, but my dad (council worker) could still fund a 3 bed detached house and new car. She was actively involved in my schooling and I left comprehensive school with pretty much straight As.
Phone use is an interesting theory.
Some parents just seem to abdicate responsibility now, and crucially, they are not challenged on it.
My wife's a primary teacher: 4 kids in reception still drink from a teat bottle. Not a sippie cup - a rubber teat. Wtaf.
The head just folds whenever parents complain about something, and then kids just make up complaints about being hit or thrown around by teachers when they don't get their wat, which just makes the teachers think "why bother"
There are good parents who get it, but the mediocre and bad ones just won't carry out any active parenting, and the school has no levers to do anything about it.
It is a deeper problem than just the school though, but it is schools where it manifests- and of course the reduced life chances of kids forgoing the education system we have funded for them.
Having said all that, I've just been reading about South Korea - that doesn't seem healthy either
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-68402139
Phone use is an interesting theory.
Some parents just seem to abdicate responsibility now, and crucially, they are not challenged on it.
My wife's a primary teacher: 4 kids in reception still drink from a teat bottle. Not a sippie cup - a rubber teat. Wtaf.
The head just folds whenever parents complain about something, and then kids just make up complaints about being hit or thrown around by teachers when they don't get their wat, which just makes the teachers think "why bother"
There are good parents who get it, but the mediocre and bad ones just won't carry out any active parenting, and the school has no levers to do anything about it.
It is a deeper problem than just the school though, but it is schools where it manifests- and of course the reduced life chances of kids forgoing the education system we have funded for them.
Having said all that, I've just been reading about South Korea - that doesn't seem healthy either
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-68402139
PRO 5T said:
I imagine it’s a combination of a lot of different reasons but I think the major one is both parents working these days.
I would say that plus all the crap, (additives & preservatives etc), that we have in our diets.My next comment is, I suspect, likely to get me ridiculed my some on here, but as I’m pondering if this is a factor, maybe it does have some grain of truth?
Whilst we’ve already acknowledged the breakdown of the family unit being a factor, either through single parent households, or through both parents working full time, I wonder how much of the degradation of standards / morals has to do with the decrease in those following a religious / semi-religious upbringing?
Would there be any correlation between a decrease in faith and an increase in certain social standards?
- when I state ‘faith’ I’m not talking about being devout, but having a certain set of traditional, moral standards and values?
Edited by 105.4 on Wednesday 28th February 07:16
What I notice at my childrens school (independent) there is a huge focus on building soft skills a d that's something I don't think the state sector has time or resources for. Parental attitude is also key 90% of parents I know are very pro education and learning. The few who are more there as a "look at how rich I am" status symbol tend to be the ones who's children underperform.
wildoliver said:
A English families in comparison there was more phone use, less conversation, less positive communication (more shouting than anything else).
I think this was true before phones. I was always struck by how friendly and polite French teenagers were.French adults treat kids with respect and get respect back. I think in Britain, less so.
105.4 said:
Whilst we’ve already acknowledged the breakdown of the family unit being a factor, either through single parent households, or through both parents working full time, I wonder how much of the degradation of standards / morals has to do with the decrease in those following a religious / semi-religious upbringing?
Would there be any correlation between a decrease in faith and an increase in certain social standards?
Part of the reason we decided to send our children to a CoE school, even though we're not religious save getting married and the kids baptised. We felt it was the right way for our children to be brought up-if they turn out to be none believers like myself they'll educate themselves in that way when they're older.Would there be any correlation between a decrease in faith and an increase in certain social standards?
- when I state ‘faith’ I’m not talking about being devout, but having a certain set of traditional, moral standards and values?
There's no right or wrong way, I'm more of the opinion that you simply need to make the effort with them, it might not be exactly the right effort but as long as you're trying.
Ian Geary said:
Some parents just seem to abdicate responsibility now, and crucially, they are not challenged on it.
My wife's a primary teacher: 4 kids in reception still drink from a teat bottle. Not a sippie cup - a rubber teat. Wtaf.
The head just folds whenever parents complain about something, and then kids just make up complaints about being hit or thrown around by teachers when they don't get their wat, which just makes the teachers think "why bother"
There are good parents who get it, but the mediocre and bad ones just won't carry out any active parenting, and the school has no levers to do anything about it.
Both my wife and I are in education (me not full time-I'm a governor), the biggest problem we see is feckless parents to put it bluntly. Week leadership in schools is certainly a massive problem but the root of the problem stems with the parents.My wife's a primary teacher: 4 kids in reception still drink from a teat bottle. Not a sippie cup - a rubber teat. Wtaf.
The head just folds whenever parents complain about something, and then kids just make up complaints about being hit or thrown around by teachers when they don't get their wat, which just makes the teachers think "why bother"
There are good parents who get it, but the mediocre and bad ones just won't carry out any active parenting, and the school has no levers to do anything about it.
I was shocked to learn that a few of our persistent late children weren't rocking up at 9:15am or half past but at 11am or later!
105.4 said:
I would say that plus all the crap, (additives & preservatives etc), that we have in our diets.
My next comment is, I suspect, likely to get me ridiculed my some on here, but as I’m pondering if this is a factor, maybe it does have some grain of truth?
Whilst we’ve already acknowledged the breakdown of the family unit being a factor, either through single parent households, or through both parents working full time, I wonder how much of the degradation of standards / morals has to do with the decrease in those following a religious / semi-religious upbringing?
Would there be any correlation between a decrease in faith and an increase in certain social standards?
My next comment is, I suspect, likely to get me ridiculed my some on here, but as I’m pondering if this is a factor, maybe it does have some grain of truth?
Whilst we’ve already acknowledged the breakdown of the family unit being a factor, either through single parent households, or through both parents working full time, I wonder how much of the degradation of standards / morals has to do with the decrease in those following a religious / semi-religious upbringing?
Would there be any correlation between a decrease in faith and an increase in certain social standards?
- when I state ‘faith’ I’m not talking about being devout, but having a certain set of traditional, moral standards and values?
Edited by 105.4 on Wednesday 28th February 07:16
You've seen the US?
I love the argument that you have to have faith to have morals.
Skeptisk said:
Perhaps the attainment gap reflects parental attitude towards education, family background and support in that children from families that aren’t helping them to learn basic social skills and some reading and writing before they go to school don’t provide an environment that supports learning throughout the child’s life.
I don't think this is news is it?BikeBikeBIke said:
PRO 5T said:
I imagine it’s a combination of a lot of different reasons but I think the major one is both parents working these days.
I've got two kids in state primary school and I can assure you it isn't the kids with two working parents who have the issues.PRO 5T said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
PRO 5T said:
I imagine it’s a combination of a lot of different reasons but I think the major one is both parents working these days.
I've got two kids in state primary school and I can assure you it isn't the kids with two working parents who have the issues.The kids this thread is referring to are almost always the product of mental health/drug misue at home. (Or their own mental health issues.)
Edited by BikeBikeBIke on Wednesday 28th February 08:13
French kids had next level politeness at home. My folks did twinning in the 90s, and kids are seen and not heard - it's just how it is. (Ok this is the middle class wealthy bit of France, and the French do take pride in being french).
The graun article on this topic today mentions parents not being aware of school readiness. My eldest kids was around when sure start centres were a thing, but they all got cut rapidly during austerity.
So if families aren't learning this from their folks, and not being told, how are they supposed to know? (Getting kid ready for school seems obvious to me, but obviously not to others...)
I don't think you can really compare private schools to state schools - any parent (or their family) that can cough up several grand a term has clearly marked themselves as different to the population of parents this thread is talking about.
I don't disagree with private schools, but they are out of reach for most, and state kids get about £2k per pupil max per year funded from taxation (absent any special needs funding). It's no surprise private schools can approach teaching in a fundamentally different way, with their self selected cohort of able kids and engaged parents.
As for religion...hmm, my wife has taught traveller kids- they have strong principles and beliefs, but the dad won't care that the 10 yo son has punched someone unconscious in the playground- it's their way. The girls are basically told don't bother with school, as once they're married they will stay at home.
The most devout people in work with are Muslim staff, but the team members I have with the most successful kids are both Indian - family money has funnelled them through private school, but with a really strong work ethic.
So I would say it is cultural rather than religious per se.
It might be a case of correlation rather than causation though - perhaps the same factors are affecting both things?
Until there's consequences for bad choices, people will keep making them. But what politician can introduce consequences to a growing section of society and still get elected? It's impossibe
The graun article on this topic today mentions parents not being aware of school readiness. My eldest kids was around when sure start centres were a thing, but they all got cut rapidly during austerity.
So if families aren't learning this from their folks, and not being told, how are they supposed to know? (Getting kid ready for school seems obvious to me, but obviously not to others...)
I don't think you can really compare private schools to state schools - any parent (or their family) that can cough up several grand a term has clearly marked themselves as different to the population of parents this thread is talking about.
I don't disagree with private schools, but they are out of reach for most, and state kids get about £2k per pupil max per year funded from taxation (absent any special needs funding). It's no surprise private schools can approach teaching in a fundamentally different way, with their self selected cohort of able kids and engaged parents.
As for religion...hmm, my wife has taught traveller kids- they have strong principles and beliefs, but the dad won't care that the 10 yo son has punched someone unconscious in the playground- it's their way. The girls are basically told don't bother with school, as once they're married they will stay at home.
The most devout people in work with are Muslim staff, but the team members I have with the most successful kids are both Indian - family money has funnelled them through private school, but with a really strong work ethic.
So I would say it is cultural rather than religious per se.
It might be a case of correlation rather than causation though - perhaps the same factors are affecting both things?
Until there's consequences for bad choices, people will keep making them. But what politician can introduce consequences to a growing section of society and still get elected? It's impossibe
Bill said:
Skeptisk said:
Perhaps the attainment gap reflects parental attitude towards education, family background and support in that children from families that aren’t helping them to learn basic social skills and some reading and writing before they go to school don’t provide an environment that supports learning throughout the child’s life.
I don't think this is news is it?But then bugger all is being done about it - no support for teachers to sanction bad parenting, bugger all desire to do anything about it by some in the profession (it doesn't all need explicit govt support) and seemingly increasing numbers of parents who can't be arsed.
"Both parents working" is an excuse. And whilst I agree there are issues with the breakdown of the family unit, where education is concerned, that's an excuse too.
Parenting is f
king hard work. But it's fully the parents' responsibility. BikeBikeBIke said:
PRO 5T said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
PRO 5T said:
I imagine it’s a combination of a lot of different reasons but I think the major one is both parents working these days.
I've got two kids in state primary school and I can assure you it isn't the kids with two working parents who have the issues.wildoliver said:
A recent trip to France was quite shocking.
Kids were not using mobile phones. A small point but, at meal times they were engaging with parents, talking and growing brains. Out and about they were looking around and seeing things and learning. I didn't see one single "foreign" family stuck face down in the glowing light. The social skills of the kids were markedly different to English kids, not to mention behaviour. English families in comparison there was more phone use, less conversation, less positive communication (more shouting than anything else). For the most part everyone off phones looked happy too, no depressed kids wondering what woe what going to affect them due to social media.
I'm convinced it's a disease and it starts at an early age when parents choose the TV/phone/tablet over parenting, if a kids main stimulus is moving pictures on a screen then they aren't getting prepared for any life other than sat Infront of a screen watching moving pictures.
Side note I've moved social media off my personal phone as I saw in these people something I'd come to dislike about myself. I'm a lot happier now my phone is a phone again instead of a constant distraction from life. It's been hard work to break the cycle, social media addiction, could do with patches for it.
No more posting on PH for you then, farewell.Kids were not using mobile phones. A small point but, at meal times they were engaging with parents, talking and growing brains. Out and about they were looking around and seeing things and learning. I didn't see one single "foreign" family stuck face down in the glowing light. The social skills of the kids were markedly different to English kids, not to mention behaviour. English families in comparison there was more phone use, less conversation, less positive communication (more shouting than anything else). For the most part everyone off phones looked happy too, no depressed kids wondering what woe what going to affect them due to social media.
I'm convinced it's a disease and it starts at an early age when parents choose the TV/phone/tablet over parenting, if a kids main stimulus is moving pictures on a screen then they aren't getting prepared for any life other than sat Infront of a screen watching moving pictures.
Side note I've moved social media off my personal phone as I saw in these people something I'd come to dislike about myself. I'm a lot happier now my phone is a phone again instead of a constant distraction from life. It's been hard work to break the cycle, social media addiction, could do with patches for it.
PRO 5T said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
PRO 5T said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
PRO 5T said:
I imagine it’s a combination of a lot of different reasons but I think the major one is both parents working these days.
I've got two kids in state primary school and I can assure you it isn't the kids with two working parents who have the issues.I'm pretty close to this issue in two different ways, children of working parents are not the problem here.
Edited by BikeBikeBIke on Wednesday 28th February 08:41
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