The future of council tax under Labour
Discussion
Probably gives a good indication of where England will be going under Starmer
https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan...
https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan...
It feels like a step in the right direction. House values are 20 years out of date in Wales (33 in England).
You could argue that income tax is progressive enough in its own right, but Rebecca Evans is right when she says income is harder to hide than property. However, should targeting the asset rich really be used to such an extent to cover shortcomings in an effective income tax regime?
You could argue that income tax is progressive enough in its own right, but Rebecca Evans is right when she says income is harder to hide than property. However, should targeting the asset rich really be used to such an extent to cover shortcomings in an effective income tax regime?
Sargeant Orange said:
It feels like a step in the right direction. House values are 20 years out of date in Wales (33 in England).
You could argue that income tax is progressive enough in its own right, but Rebecca Evans is right when she says income is harder to hide than property. However, should targeting the asset rich really be used to such an extent to cover shortcomings in an effective income tax regime?
That's exactly the opposite of what she said? People earning/with income beyond a certain point can avail themselves of tax avoidance via accountants and those with high net worth don't draw a salary, so is income tax actually that progressive? Property tax, LVT or otherwise, cannot be avoided.You could argue that income tax is progressive enough in its own right, but Rebecca Evans is right when she says income is harder to hide than property. However, should targeting the asset rich really be used to such an extent to cover shortcomings in an effective income tax regime?
I do think it's unfair at the moment but it should also be means tested, obviously I'm speaking from a personal viewpoint here.
We're fortunate enough to live in a nice house in a nice area, we built it 14 years ago when we were flush, in effect we sunk all our money into this house, now we're both over 60, retired and living off our work pensions and just getting by, certainly not saving anything, we have one holiday a year in Devon for a week.
We pay max council tax, if it were to go up massively with no regard for ability to pay then we would probably have to sell up, and certainly if one of us dies before state pension then the other would have to, whereas now the other would just scrape through.
We're fortunate enough to live in a nice house in a nice area, we built it 14 years ago when we were flush, in effect we sunk all our money into this house, now we're both over 60, retired and living off our work pensions and just getting by, certainly not saving anything, we have one holiday a year in Devon for a week.
We pay max council tax, if it were to go up massively with no regard for ability to pay then we would probably have to sell up, and certainly if one of us dies before state pension then the other would have to, whereas now the other would just scrape through.
Sargeant Orange said:
It feels like a step in the right direction. House values are 20 years out of date in Wales (33 in England).
If you read the small print (in the IFS report) then far more is planned in Wales than a simple revaluation (assuming option 1 is not pursued). You are also looking at a very significant transfer of the tax burden onto councils with higher valued properties, via a simultaneous change to the grants provided to councils. If the same principle were applied in England then you would see very substantial council tax rises in the SE, but no increase in funding available to councils in those areas.
eliot said:
house prices may be 20 years out of date, but they somehow manage to increase the council tax every year for an increasingly poorer service.
The service has declined because central govt funding has shrunk steadily while statutory duties have remained or increased, council services cannot be paid for solely with council tax.In 1991, the top band paid x3 more than the lowest band.
However, councils spent a lot less, so it was x3 of a lot less.
Ignoring the "fairness" issue (which is subjective) for a moment, council tax has problems because not all councils have the ability to raise income in the same way. Because it's historic fluke what proportion of income came from it
I would expect the government to adjust the overall funding (core spending power) to compensate for any changes, which is usually through grants. In some cases a council might have a negative grant.
Regarding fairness - property taxes are quite low in the UK. Councils are not amazingly efficient, but they compare well to other parts of the public sector and even parts of the private sector (imo) though it's hard to compare as their entire DNA and purpose is fundamentally different.
I'm not sure if Wales intends to redistribute the existing burden, or increase the overall tax take? Politically, those gaining have far shorter memories than those losing.
Ultimately, someone has to pay more into the public purse to keep up with demographic issues, economic issues and regulatory increases.
House value is a poor proxy for someone's wealth or for their income, which is why government spread tax over a number of different bases.
I have met very few people who want to pay more tax - though Westminster trialled a band HH, ie double H and they got a lot of support locally. But Westminster is hardly typical, and I doubt many areas of Wales are comparable.
However, councils spent a lot less, so it was x3 of a lot less.
Ignoring the "fairness" issue (which is subjective) for a moment, council tax has problems because not all councils have the ability to raise income in the same way. Because it's historic fluke what proportion of income came from it
I would expect the government to adjust the overall funding (core spending power) to compensate for any changes, which is usually through grants. In some cases a council might have a negative grant.
Regarding fairness - property taxes are quite low in the UK. Councils are not amazingly efficient, but they compare well to other parts of the public sector and even parts of the private sector (imo) though it's hard to compare as their entire DNA and purpose is fundamentally different.
I'm not sure if Wales intends to redistribute the existing burden, or increase the overall tax take? Politically, those gaining have far shorter memories than those losing.
Ultimately, someone has to pay more into the public purse to keep up with demographic issues, economic issues and regulatory increases.
House value is a poor proxy for someone's wealth or for their income, which is why government spread tax over a number of different bases.
I have met very few people who want to pay more tax - though Westminster trialled a band HH, ie double H and they got a lot of support locally. But Westminster is hardly typical, and I doubt many areas of Wales are comparable.
hidetheelephants said:
eliot said:
house prices may be 20 years out of date, but they somehow manage to increase the council tax every year for an increasingly poorer service.
The service has declined because central govt funding has shrunk steadily while statutory duties have remained or increased, council services cannot be paid for solely with council tax.The idea that councils are a service is so out of date its incredible, they are now a badly run pseudo-business that have to provide a bare minimum of services and the national policies for immigration and asylum add more burden daily.
When the country is skint, the people are skint and everyone is getting concerned about money putting council tax up is going to pile more misery on the few productive folk who actually contribute to this s
tshow.I remember the last labour Govt, it was a disaster, this one will be no different. I'm fed up paying for this level of piss poor service already.
Getragdogleg said:
Yet there are countless millions for pointless regeneration schemes and road narrowing, new 20mph limits and wasting money on unsafe investments (see Thurrock council). The people who are net contributors know they don't get any kind of value out of the money we pay in.
The idea that councils are a service is so out of date its incredible, they are now a badly run pseudo-business that have to provide a bare minimum of services and the national policies for immigration and asylum add more burden daily.
When the country is skint, the people are skint and everyone is getting concerned about money putting council tax up is going to pile more misery on the few productive folk who actually contribute to this stshow.
I remember the last labour Govt, it was a disaster, this one will be no different. I'm fed up paying for this level of piss poor service already.
I remember the last labour government too, and seeing a GP or getting an ambulance when you really needed one, I don't recall being an issue. The idea that councils are a service is so out of date its incredible, they are now a badly run pseudo-business that have to provide a bare minimum of services and the national policies for immigration and asylum add more burden daily.
When the country is skint, the people are skint and everyone is getting concerned about money putting council tax up is going to pile more misery on the few productive folk who actually contribute to this s
tshow.I remember the last labour Govt, it was a disaster, this one will be no different. I'm fed up paying for this level of piss poor service already.
I do remember complaining widely at the time about all and sundry as we all do, but dear god the Tory governments we've had since have been worse imo.
eliot said:
house prices may be 20 years out of date, but they somehow manage to increase the council tax every year for an increasingly poorer service.
It's not the actual numerical value (in currency) of a property, but the ratios of properties up and down the spectrum of values. Out of date only applies if a property has been improved significantly over where it was when it was valued. Even when not in office labour is always planning on squeezing more and more tax out of an overtaxed population usually to fund massive waste and failure.
They brand it "progressive" as that sounds nice when in reality, read punitive instead of progressive. Wonder if they will go for the Corbyn/Mugabe asset and land seizure option?
If they adjust these bands on properties surely they must move the banding on IHT too, but I strongly doubt that will happen, everything must go to the glorious state.
They brand it "progressive" as that sounds nice when in reality, read punitive instead of progressive. Wonder if they will go for the Corbyn/Mugabe asset and land seizure option?
If they adjust these bands on properties surely they must move the banding on IHT too, but I strongly doubt that will happen, everything must go to the glorious state.
Edited by Tom8 on Wednesday 7th February 08:58
motco said:
It's not the actual numerical value (in currency) of a property, but the ratios of properties up and down the spectrum of values. Out of date only applies if a property has been improved significantly over where it was when it was valued.
YesIf all we are talking about is a straightforward revaluation then all that matters is relative values within an individual council. So you could potentially move a band either way, if you haven't done anything to it, but it isn't likely to be that dramatic in impact.
Rivenink said:
Good?
Council tax needs reform.
That was my thought reading the article.Council tax needs reform.
How to reform it's up for debate but it does need reform.
Asset rich cash poor people can always sell their assets. Why should asset poor pay to maintain their lifestyle?
Of course some will get outraged and start painting pictures that labour is coming for your wallet. They're not. Polly Toynbee is not the Labour Party and Starmer is not going to rock the old biddy boat. But it is noticeable how some are starting to get scared, maybe they've been freeloading for too long.
heebeegeetee said:
Getragdogleg said:
Yet there are countless millions for pointless regeneration schemes and road narrowing, new 20mph limits and wasting money on unsafe investments (see Thurrock council). The people who are net contributors know they don't get any kind of value out of the money we pay in.
The idea that councils are a service is so out of date its incredible, they are now a badly run pseudo-business that have to provide a bare minimum of services and the national policies for immigration and asylum add more burden daily.
When the country is skint, the people are skint and everyone is getting concerned about money putting council tax up is going to pile more misery on the few productive folk who actually contribute to this stshow.
I remember the last labour Govt, it was a disaster, this one will be no different. I'm fed up paying for this level of piss poor service already.
I remember the last labour government too, and seeing a GP or getting an ambulance when you really needed one, I don't recall being an issue. The idea that councils are a service is so out of date its incredible, they are now a badly run pseudo-business that have to provide a bare minimum of services and the national policies for immigration and asylum add more burden daily.
When the country is skint, the people are skint and everyone is getting concerned about money putting council tax up is going to pile more misery on the few productive folk who actually contribute to this s
tshow.I remember the last labour Govt, it was a disaster, this one will be no different. I'm fed up paying for this level of piss poor service already.
I do remember complaining widely at the time about all and sundry as we all do, but dear god the Tory governments we've had since have been worse imo.
After 14 years of Tory rule, we've gotten poorer, we're getting poorer, taxes are super high, public services are in crises, and we've an entire generation that almost entirely expects to be renting for their entire life.
Rivenink said:
heebeegeetee said:
Getragdogleg said:
Yet there are countless millions for pointless regeneration schemes and road narrowing, new 20mph limits and wasting money on unsafe investments (see Thurrock council). The people who are net contributors know they don't get any kind of value out of the money we pay in.
The idea that councils are a service is so out of date its incredible, they are now a badly run pseudo-business that have to provide a bare minimum of services and the national policies for immigration and asylum add more burden daily.
When the country is skint, the people are skint and everyone is getting concerned about money putting council tax up is going to pile more misery on the few productive folk who actually contribute to this stshow.
I remember the last labour Govt, it was a disaster, this one will be no different. I'm fed up paying for this level of piss poor service already.
I remember the last labour government too, and seeing a GP or getting an ambulance when you really needed one, I don't recall being an issue. The idea that councils are a service is so out of date its incredible, they are now a badly run pseudo-business that have to provide a bare minimum of services and the national policies for immigration and asylum add more burden daily.
When the country is skint, the people are skint and everyone is getting concerned about money putting council tax up is going to pile more misery on the few productive folk who actually contribute to this s
tshow.I remember the last labour Govt, it was a disaster, this one will be no different. I'm fed up paying for this level of piss poor service already.
I do remember complaining widely at the time about all and sundry as we all do, but dear god the Tory governments we've had since have been worse imo.
After 14 years of Tory rule, we've gotten poorer, we're getting poorer, taxes are super high, public services are in crises, and we've an entire generation that almost entirely expects to be renting for their entire life.
Gold sell off and the bottom of the market to pump into the economy. You wonder why you felt "richer"?
The country was heaped with debt through things like PFI. Kicking the can miles down the road making the gullible think they were "richer"
They convinced everyone they could go to university by grade inflation and calling anything a "university".
They fiddled crime figures by creating "anti social behaviour" another rebrand of language, but by not treating it as crime, crime figures then "fell".
And that was before Iraq.
Labour follow exactly the same plan every time, leaving everything worse than when they inherited. Ken Clarke as chancellor gave Blair a golden legacy for him to throw away.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff