US Nitrogen execution?

Author
Discussion

J4CKO

Original Poster:

42,861 posts

207 months

Thursday 25th January
quotequote all
Looks like this is going ahead,

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-6808927...

There is a lot of outcry about the method, which as replaced lethal injection but how does this fit in with assisted dying methods ? like Dignitas where folk seem to manage and dont hear as much about it ? Is that due to the difference between people who want to die and will tolerate a bit of temporary hell for permanent relief from whatever horrendous pain afflicts them ? Vs those who dont typically want to die ?

Plus, in the past we had all sorts of grisly methods, some of which were particularly spiteful and drawn out, but others, that don't seem to be used any more aren't used yet seem to be more humane and instant, firing squad for example ? Even the guillotine, macabre as it was, it was at least pretty effective and quick.

The Electric chair seems the most horrendous modern version and is still an option in some states, last used in 2020. Does make me wonder if its horrific as is made out, or is our understanding from the film "The Green Mile" ?

I am generally against the death penalty but the methods, pros and cons are interesting.


P-Jay

10,802 posts

198 months

Thursday 25th January
quotequote all
J4CKO said:
Looks like this is going ahead,

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-6808927...

There is a lot of outcry about the method, which as replaced lethal injection but how does this fit in with assisted dying methods ? like Dignitas where folk seem to manage and dont hear as much about it ? Is that due to the difference between people who want to die and will tolerate a bit of temporary hell for permanent relief from whatever horrendous pain afflicts them ? Vs those who dont typically want to die ?

Plus, in the past we had all sorts of grisly methods, some of which were particularly spiteful and drawn out, but others, that don't seem to be used any more aren't used yet seem to be more humane and instant, firing squad for example ? Even the guillotine, macabre as it was, it was at least pretty effective and quick.

The Electric chair seems the most horrendous modern version and is still an option in some states, last used in 2020. Does make me wonder if its horrific as is made out, or is our understanding from the film "The Green Mile" ?

I am generally against the death penalty but the methods, pros and cons are interesting.
My opinion of it is, a lot of Yanks especially don't really want to kill people humanely. Like you say, the Guillotine as gory as it is, could be made instant and 100% effective, but it's messy and honestly, I think a lot of them want to see them suffer.

I've also wondered about assisted suicide, they drink a tasteless colourless liquid in some water, fall asleep peacefully and die. It's a nasty business forcing someone to drink something, but a feeding peg, or an IV version must be better than however they're botching it at the moment.

"if its horrific as is made out," Yes, every bit as bad as you can imagine, even a perfect execution by electric chair is brutal, painful and longer than it should be. They often don't die with a single charge and it can go on for a long time. It would be kinder and faster for the executioner to shoot them in the head, but that's 'inhumane' because it's messy.

sherbertdip

1,190 posts

126 months

Thursday 25th January
quotequote all
J4CKO said:
Looks like this is going ahead,

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-6808927...

There is a lot of outcry about the method, which as replaced lethal injection but how does this fit in with assisted dying methods ? like Dignitas where folk seem to manage and dont hear as much about it ? Is that due to the difference between people who want to die and will tolerate a bit of temporary hell for permanent relief from whatever horrendous pain afflicts them ? Vs those who dont typically want to die ?
Not sure where you get the tolerating a bit of temporary hell from, there are a couple of different methods for self euthanasia, one is an injection and the other a cocktail of drugs taken orally usually with fruit juice, what they both have in common is a fact acting anaesthetic/relaxant and then the one that slows and stops the heart, supposed to be very peaceful.

Like you I'm against the death penalty apart from where there is direct proof of a hideous act resulting in death of somebody else, I don't see another method needs to be used when a peaceful method exists.

oddman

2,796 posts

259 months

Thursday 25th January
quotequote all
Death penalty in the US seems to lie at the intersection of their piety, squeamishness and cruelty.

The imperative seems to be to find a method which is 'humane' but also distances the executioners from the barbarity of the process. So no shooting or 'long drop' hanging.The obvious option would be a Dignitas type cocktail. Problem is firstly a prisoner may not cooperate with swallowing; many have been IV drug users and don't have veins that are easy to find and importantly that drug companies now refusing to supply medication. Hence the states where its used scratching around for methods.

Theoretically a nitrogen chamber could be humane. If I was in a Dignitas situation it might appeal. Submersion in nitrogen foam has been developed for humane euthanasia of pigs

What they are trying to do here is administer 100% nitrogen through a mask. This sounds problematic to me if the guy struggles or vomits and they can't get a good seal on the mask I suspect he'll suffocate slowly.

They had the prisoners pastor on R4 this lunchtime who was expressing the concern that nitrogen might leak from the mask and poison the bystanders rolleyes

turbobloke

107,824 posts

267 months

Thursday 25th January
quotequote all
oddman said:
They had the prisoners pastor on R4 this lunchtime who was expressing the concern that nitrogen might leak from the mask and poison the bystanders rolleyes
Indeed. Thus sayeth the pastor while breathing a gas containing almost 80% nitrogen, aka air. Presumably the pastor is allowed outdoors unaccompanied and can vote.

J4CKO

Original Poster:

42,861 posts

207 months

Thursday 25th January
quotequote all
sherbertdip said:
J4CKO said:
Looks like this is going ahead,

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-6808927...

There is a lot of outcry about the method, which as replaced lethal injection but how does this fit in with assisted dying methods ? like Dignitas where folk seem to manage and dont hear as much about it ? Is that due to the difference between people who want to die and will tolerate a bit of temporary hell for permanent relief from whatever horrendous pain afflicts them ? Vs those who dont typically want to die ?
Not sure where you get the tolerating a bit of temporary hell from, there are a couple of different methods for self euthanasia, one is an injection and the other a cocktail of drugs taken orally usually with fruit juice, what they both have in common is a fact acting anaesthetic/relaxant and then the one that slows and stops the heart, supposed to be very peaceful.

Like you I'm against the death penalty apart from where there is direct proof of a hideous act resulting in death of somebody else, I don't see another method needs to be used when a peaceful method exists.
That was my point, it all sounds peaceful and saw a documentary in which someone went for voluntary euthanasia, think a laptop was involved, all seemed very peaceful but the execution method seems to get botched.

My point was, are people afflicted with a terrible disease like MND more apt to put up with some temporary discomfort to achieve relief from it, as its at odds with the botching, surviving and general agro around lethal injections for executions in the US, why dont they just use whatever Dignitas use ?




Legacywr

12,800 posts

195 months

Thursday 25th January
quotequote all
Isn’t this a painless way to die, doesn’t it mimic oxygen in the lungs, so you have no idea you’re suffocating, and you actually get ‘high’ before dying?

I remember seeing a program about the death penalty with Michael Portillo in it. In one segment he partially went through this process.

Or have I got that wrong?

Bigends

5,682 posts

135 months

Thursday 25th January
quotequote all
Legacywr said:
Isn’t this a painless way to die, doesn’t it mimic oxygen in the lungs, so you have no idea you’re suffocating, and you actually get ‘high’ before dying?

I remember seeing a program about the death penalty with Michael Portillo in it. In one segment he partially went through this process.

Or have I got that wrong?
Its not been used yet so nobody knows what his death will be like. The Yanks seem to try and find harder and harder ways to execute prisoners. Need to use good old English long drop hanging method - all over in seconds.

Terminator X

16,350 posts

211 months

Thursday 25th January
quotequote all
O/t but what we use for animals seems peaceful enough, off to sleep with one injection heart stopped with another.

TX.

Legacywr

12,800 posts

195 months

Thursday 25th January
quotequote all
Bigends said:
Legacywr said:
Isn’t this a painless way to die, doesn’t it mimic oxygen in the lungs, so you have no idea you’re suffocating, and you actually get ‘high’ before dying?

I remember seeing a program about the death penalty with Michael Portillo in it. In one segment he partially went through this process.

Or have I got that wrong?
Its not been used yet so nobody knows what his death will be like. The Yanks seem to try and find harder and harder ways to execute prisoners. Need to use good old English long drop hanging method - all over in seconds.
I’m sure they’ll have tested it on animals?

Roofless Toothless

6,132 posts

139 months

Thursday 25th January
quotequote all
P-Jay said:
My opinion of it is, a lot of Yanks especially don't really want to kill people humanely. Like you say, the Guillotine as gory as it is, could be made instant and 100% effective, but it's messy and honestly, I think a lot of them want to see them suffer.
I wouldn't be too sure about that.

https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/...

CrutyRammers

13,735 posts

205 months

Thursday 25th January
quotequote all
P-Jay said:
J4CKO said:
Looks like this is going ahead,

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-6808927...

There is a lot of outcry about the method, which as replaced lethal injection but how does this fit in with assisted dying methods ? like Dignitas where folk seem to manage and dont hear as much about it ? Is that due to the difference between people who want to die and will tolerate a bit of temporary hell for permanent relief from whatever horrendous pain afflicts them ? Vs those who dont typically want to die ?

Plus, in the past we had all sorts of grisly methods, some of which were particularly spiteful and drawn out, but others, that don't seem to be used any more aren't used yet seem to be more humane and instant, firing squad for example ? Even the guillotine, macabre as it was, it was at least pretty effective and quick.

The Electric chair seems the most horrendous modern version and is still an option in some states, last used in 2020. Does make me wonder if its horrific as is made out, or is our understanding from the film "The Green Mile" ?

I am generally against the death penalty but the methods, pros and cons are interesting.
My opinion of it is, a lot of Yanks especially don't really want to kill people humanely. Like you say, the Guillotine as gory as it is, could be made instant and 100% effective, but it's messy and honestly, I think a lot of them want to see them suffer.

I've also wondered about assisted suicide, they drink a tasteless colourless liquid in some water, fall asleep peacefully and die. It's a nasty business forcing someone to drink something, but a feeding peg, or an IV version must be better than however they're botching it at the moment.

"if its horrific as is made out," Yes, every bit as bad as you can imagine, even a perfect execution by electric chair is brutal, painful and longer than it should be. They often don't die with a single charge and it can go on for a long time. It would be kinder and faster for the executioner to shoot them in the head, but that's 'inhumane' because it's messy.
IIRC monsieur Guilloteen created his invention because he was trying to make things more humane with less random mistakes, and was horrified when it ended up being used on an industrial scale in the revolution.

dundarach

5,380 posts

235 months

Thursday 25th January
quotequote all
Hard one, but a good excuse to post this interesting article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Pierrepoint

He'd know what to do, not so much in later life however!

MonkeyBusiness

4,032 posts

194 months

Thursday 25th January
quotequote all
Roofless Toothless said:
That's very interesting. Everydays a school day.

SpudLink

6,446 posts

199 months

Thursday 25th January
quotequote all
MonkeyBusiness said:
Roofless Toothless said:
That's very interesting. Everydays a school day.
That's something I first heard about after seeing it in an '80s horror film. Then when I found out there was evidence that consciousness survives for perhaps seconds, it's haunted me.

P-Jay

10,802 posts

198 months

Thursday 25th January
quotequote all
dundarach said:
Hard one, but a good excuse to post this interesting article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Pierrepoint

He'd know what to do, not so much in later life however!
Many years ago I was at home bored at 3am or so, thanks to my usual insomnia and I found myself watching a film about him with Timothy Spall.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0462477/

I've been morbidly interested in the subject ever since. I absolutely disagree with it with every fibre of my being, but I still find it fascinating.

I watched another film about some women being executed in Thailand (I think) they tied them to a post holding some flowers and shot them through a screen with an M60.

I can't dwell on it too much or it makes me depressed. Hideous business, there shouldn't be a place for it in a civilised world.

fttm canada

3,866 posts

142 months

Thursday 25th January
quotequote all
Legacywr said:
Bigends said:
Legacywr said:
Isn’t this a painless way to die, doesn’t it mimic oxygen in the lungs, so you have no idea you’re suffocating, and you actually get ‘high’ before dying?

I remember seeing a program about the death penalty with Michael Portillo in it. In one segment he partially went through this process.

Or have I got that wrong?
Its not been used yet so nobody knows what his death will be like. The Yanks seem to try and find harder and harder ways to execute prisoners. Need to use good old English long drop hanging method - all over in seconds.
I’m sure they’ll have tested it on animals?
Commonly used for large culls , eg an outbreak of bird flu at a chicken farm . Nitrogen disperses Oxygen , there's no real reason for using a mask on the guy , small confined space /room , one breath on Nitrogen gas and he'll be unconscious , the second/third will be fatal .

CT05 Nose Cone

25,243 posts

234 months

Thursday 25th January
quotequote all
Bigends said:
Need to use good old English long drop hanging method - all over in seconds.
Only if it's done properly, plenty of examples where it was botched and the person slowly strangled to death.

FourWheelDrift

89,642 posts

291 months

Thursday 25th January
quotequote all
Also, is he absolutely 100% guilty of the crime?

"Since 1973, at least 196 people who had been wrongly convicted and sentenced to death in the U.S. have been exonerated."

blue_haddock

3,871 posts

74 months

Thursday 25th January
quotequote all
CT05 Nose Cone said:
Bigends said:
Need to use good old English long drop hanging method - all over in seconds.
Only if it's done properly, plenty of examples where it was botched and the person slowly strangled to death.
or the complete opposite where the person being hung ended up decapitated.