Female Prison Officer Inappropriate Relationship

[Southerner]

https://metro.co.uk/2024/01/10/female-prison-offic...



Not wanting to come across all ‘old dinosaur’ and wotnot, but is it just me who thinks the problem here is, well, a bit obvious?!

You take a very pretty, very young (she’s stated as being 22 now, and the alleged offences were in 2020) and it’s fair to assume quite possibly rather naive young woman (purely due to her age and level of life experience, if nothing else), drop her into a prison full of horny male convicts, and then expect that to end well? Surely this is the same issue that experienced and ex coppers keep talking about on here with youngsters fresh out of nappies going into the job who’ve precious little chance of being able to cope, but a hundred times worse here with much more to go catastrophically wrong. If my daughter did that job at that age I’d be permanently on edge waiting for the news of her either being attacked, messed about with or being very foolish and doing something silly like this.

I realise the prison service is shot to sh*t and desperate for staff just like every other public service, but this looks like some appallingly bad recruitment and deployment decisions, frankly.

[mac96]

I agree, it sounds on the face of it unfair. I wonder how many hours she was working too? Two prisons?
Did she do something which allowed the inmate to pressure her into sex, blackmail,threats etc. Was he someone she knew outside before he was sentenced?
So much we don't know.

And how is a 19/20 year old supposed to maintain prison discipline?

[super7]

Seems to be catching......

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67905975

[g4ry13]

Southerner said:

Not wanting to come across all ‘old dinosaur’ and wotnot, but is it just me who thinks the problem here is, well, a bit obvious?!

You take a very pretty, very young (she’s stated as being 22 now, and the alleged offences were in 2020) and it’s fair to assume quite possibly rather naive young woman (purely due to her age and level of life experience, if nothing else), drop her into a prison full of horny male convicts, and then expect that to end well?

She's pretty if you're in a prison full of guys. But I wouldn't go as far to call her "very pretty".

Perhaps Prison officers are one of the jobs where you can discriminate that only women work at female prisons and men work at male prisons as it works both ways?

In certain lines of work it's hazardous when biologically weaker females end up in a position of trying to outmuscle someone much stronger than them.

[Sheets Tabuer]

This is what happens when you give kids important jobs.

[g4ry13]

Sheets Tabuer said:

This is what happens when you give kids important jobs.

Conversely, people are happy to give an 18 year old a rifle and send them off to war.

[Silvanus]

g4ry13 said:

Sheets Tabuer said:

This is what happens when you give kids important jobs.

Conversely, people are happy to give an 18 year old a rifle and send them off to war.

And Boris Johnson was in charge of the country. Age not the only thing that needs to be considered.

[Sheets Tabuer]

g4ry13 said:

Conversely, people are happy to give an 18 year old a rifle and send them off to war.

I'd argue putting 20 year old girls in with people who are probably well versed in manipulation and deception might not be a good idea.

[irc]

Sheets Tabuer said:

This is what happens when you give kids important jobs.

This, in Scotland anyway, is what happens when female prisoners make up around 5% of the prison population but female prison staff make up more than a third of the workforce.

Am I a dinosaur for thinking that for various reasons male prisons should have mainly male warders and vice versa?

The prison service as per the second link values a diverse workforce.


https://www.gov.scot/binaries/content/documents/go...

https://www.sps.gov.uk/nmsruntime/saveasdialog.asp...

[crofty1984]

g4ry13 said:

Sheets Tabuer said:

This is what happens when you give kids important jobs.

Conversely, people are happy to give an 18 year old a rifle and send them off to war.

And when you ask them "how much should we give?" They only answer more, more, more.

[Jamescrs]

I understand all the comments on her age and entering a prison but the issue is that anyone with more life experience and ready established in their career is not going to throw it all in to work in a prison for circa £20k per year, same with the Police service and probably many other public services.

At the end of the day you get what you pay for

[Four Litre]

Southerner said:

https://metro.co.uk/2024/01/10/female-prison-offic...



Not wanting to come across all ‘old dinosaur’ and wotnot, but is it just me who thinks the problem here is, well, a bit obvious?!

You take a very pretty, very young (she’s stated as being 22 now, and the alleged offences were in 2020) and it’s fair to assume quite possibly rather naive young woman (purely due to her age and level of life experience, if nothing else), drop her into a prison full of horny male convicts, and then expect that to end well? Surely this is the same issue that experienced and ex coppers keep talking about on here with youngsters fresh out of nappies going into the job who’ve precious little chance of being able to cope, but a hundred times worse here with much more to go catastrophically wrong. If my daughter did that job at that age I’d be permanently on edge waiting for the news of her either being attacked, messed about with or being very foolish and doing something silly like this.

I realise the prison service is shot to sh*t and desperate for staff just like every other public service, but this looks like some appallingly bad recruitment and deployment decisions, frankly.

That's not in any way shape or form 'Dinosaur thinking'. More like not being a complete imbecile. I would question anyone's judgement if they thought this was a suitable arrangement. Forget the sexual side of things, what happens when things turn physical, which they do in prisons, she would be a number one target and unable to defend herself against a grown man. Utter stupidity in the name of diversity.

There are jobs that aren't suitable for women and the same for men. We used to know this, now for some reason its been forgotten.

[Silvanus]

Jamescrs said:

I understand all the comments on her age and entering a prison but the issue is that anyone with more life experience and ready established in their career is not going to throw it all in to work in a prison for circa £20k per year, same with the Police service and probably many other public services.

At the end of the day you get what you pay for

Starting salary is £32-39k, no qualifications needed, 39 hour weeks.

Not that it's a job I'd be interested in but certainly paid more than I do for less hours. Not a bad gig if that sort of work is of interest to you.

[QJumper]

Sheets Tabuer said:

I'd argue putting 20 year old girls in with people who are probably well versed in manipulation and deception might not be a good idea.

I would agree that it's probably not a good idea, but don't know how you'd deal with that without gettting accusations of sexism.

However, were it a 20 year old man, and a woman prisoner, I suspect the view would be that it was a male taking advantage of a vulnerable female prisoner.

In the end, she's an adult, in a position of authority. If she was coerced in any way then hopefully that comes out and she's able to defend herself properly.

[biggbn]

crofty1984 said:

g4ry13 said:

Sheets Tabuer said:

This is what happens when you give kids important jobs.

Conversely, people are happy to give an 18 year old a rifle and send them off to war.

And when you ask them "how much should we give?" They only answer more, more, more.

You're fortunate, son...

[Mikebentley]

Silvanus said:

Jamescrs said:

I understand all the comments on her age and entering a prison but the issue is that anyone with more life experience and ready established in their career is not going to throw it all in to work in a prison for circa £20k per year, same with the Police service and probably many other public services.

At the end of the day you get what you pay for

Starting salary is £32-39k, no qualifications needed, 39 hour weeks.

Not that it's a job I'd be interested in but certainly paid more than I do for less hours. Not a bad gig if that sort of work is of interest to you.

Starting salary is £24118 in majority of England and in Wales. Nowhere near £32-39k.
I’ve stated here previously so by way of a disclaimer I was a Senior Prison Officer for 15 yrs Cat B locals and 5yrs Cat A High Security. Do I think she is too young…..yes. There is a place for both male and female staff within establishments but I do think we need a minimum age of 25 for a Prison Officer. Anybody under that age could be considered for the role of OSG or Operational Support Grade where there is very minimal contact with prisoners and where the OSG is being supervised in turn by Officers and Seniors.

[Southerner]

Mikebentley said:

Starting salary is £24118 in majority of England and in Wales. Nowhere near £32-39k.
I’ve stated here previously so by way of a disclaimer I was a Senior Prison Officer for 15 yrs Cat B locals and 5yrs Cat A High Security. Do I think she is too young…..yes. There is a place for both male and female staff within establishments but I do think we need a minimum age of 25 for a Prison Officer. Anybody under that age could be considered for the role of OSG or Operational Support Grade where there is very minimal contact with prisoners and where the OSG is being supervised in turn by Officers and Seniors.

Yup, I thought exactly the same (from a much less qualified viewpoint than you!) that a hardline minimum age of 25 would be entirely sensible for this sort of role, same for the police. And even then still with a heavy consideration given to whether the individual ‘has it about them’ to be any good at the job once they’re qualified.

Is there much in the way of assessment or progress monitoring for trainee prison officers, is it possible to “fail” the training etc?

[QJumper]

Mikebentley said:

Starting salary is £24118 in majority of England and in Wales. Nowhere near £32-39k.
I’ve stated here previously so by way of a disclaimer I was a Senior Prison Officer for 15 yrs Cat B locals and 5yrs Cat A High Security. Do I think she is too young…..yes. There is a place for both male and female staff within establishments but I do think we need a minimum age of 25 for a Prison Officer. Anybody under that age could be considered for the role of OSG or Operational Support Grade where there is very minimal contact with prisoners and where the OSG is being supervised in turn by Officers and Seniors.

That would seem to make sense. So, in your experience does it just boil down to a matter of cost, in that it's cheaper to have a 20 year old doing it than a 25 year old?

[Southerner]

g4ry13 said:

Sheets Tabuer said:

This is what happens when you give kids important jobs.

Conversely, people are happy to give an 18 year old a rifle and send them off to war.

In fairness, if you’re off to war it doesn’t really matter whether you’re sweet 16 or retiring next year, you’re largely cannon fodder and the powers-that-be will send another batch of annonymous serial numbers to replace those who are lost in battle.

A prison though needs to function permenently, forever. These sort of relationships are bad not just because Jonny Scroat is in there to be punished and shouldn’t be getting his end away, but more importantly because prison officers leaving themselves wide open to coercion or blackmail is a very harmful and potentially dangerous thing, and that is where this can lead. And indeed in this instance there is a further allegation of illegitimate use of a computer database, who knows what the potential consequences are of that.

Fully agree with other suggestions here that there ought to be a minimum age for this sort of work so that there is at least a basic degree of life experience and maturity involved, and that male prisons really would be better off with all-male staffing to at least reduce the very obvious temptation for these situations to occur. Of course it’ll always happen, to a degree, but this case seems very close to the prison service setting up for failure, frankly.

[andymc]

Jamescrs said:

I understand all the comments on her age and entering a prison but the issue is that anyone with more life experience and ready established in their career is not going to throw it all in to work in a prison for circa £20k per year, same with the Police service and probably many other public services.

At the end of the day you get what you pay for

that is why things ran better with a hairy arsed ex para on the landings