London is world slowest city for drivers

[Golden Guinea Charlie]

Who to believe, TomTom, or TFL?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67916...

[Dynion Araf Uchaf]

weird that Manchester is the second slowest UK city. AFAIK Manchester doesn't have anywhere near the proliferation of cycle lanes, LTNS, and 20 mph limits that a city such as Oxford has.

Maybe it's just the design of the city that's the issue.

[ATG]

Dynion Araf Uchaf said:

weird that Manchester is the second slowest UK city. AFAIK Manchester doesn't have anywhere near the proliferation of cycle lanes, LTNS, and 20 mph limits that a city such as Oxford has.

Maybe it's just the design of the city that's the issue.

Quite. The only way one could say "it's the 20mph limits" is if you could see how average journey times changed as a result of introducing the 20mpg limits. You need to have data from before and after the change and be able to take into account the impact of any other changes that were taking place at the same time.

Call me an old cynic, but I very much doubt TomTom did any of that because they're not a transport research think-tank. They're a bunch of software wkers trying to flog software by drumming up publicity. So, is this thing an inflammatory press release or is it a serious piece of research? Press your buzzers now.

[Rivenink]

ATG said:

Dynion Araf Uchaf said:

weird that Manchester is the second slowest UK city. AFAIK Manchester doesn't have anywhere near the proliferation of cycle lanes, LTNS, and 20 mph limits that a city such as Oxford has.

Maybe it's just the design of the city that's the issue.

Quite. The only way one could say "it's the 20mph limits" is if you could see how average journey times changed as a result of introducing the 20mpg limits. You need to have data from before and after the change and be able to take into account the impact of any other changes that were taking place at the same time.

Call me an old cynic, but I very much doubt TomTom did any of that because they're not a transport research think-tank. They're a bunch of software wkers trying to flog software by drumming up publicity. So, is this thing an inflammatory press release or is it a serious piece of research? Press your buzzers now.

TomTom still exists?

I thought, Apple Maps, Google Maps & Waze put them out of business.

[Byker28i]

Built into some cars Nav systems. It was on our old Mazda

[Tom8]

Genius idea. Slow vehicles down so they operate as inefficiently as possible and belch out fumes for everyone to inhale. Then claim you're doing it for safety/the climate change/pollution.

Still, London voted for him they are welcome to him.

[oyster]

Tom8 said:

Genius idea. Slow vehicles down so they operate as inefficiently as possible and belch out fumes for everyone to inhale. Then claim you're doing it for safety/the climate change/pollution.

Still, London voted for him they are welcome to him.

If they're electric, why does it matter?

[Tom8]

oyster said:

Tom8 said:

Genius idea. Slow vehicles down so they operate as inefficiently as possible and belch out fumes for everyone to inhale. Then claim you're doing it for safety/the climate change/pollution.

Still, London voted for him they are welcome to him.

If they're electric, why does it matter?

They aren't though are they. And those without 50k+ to spend on a vehicle generally drive older more pollution cars and vans. But apart from that you are spot on.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Don't care. I live in London suburbs and the last time I drove in Central London was December 2018, and that was to collect the wife from hospital post op as she was too fragile to take public transport. Prior to that, probably not for 20 years.

[JagLover]

ATG said:

Quite. The only way one could say "it's the 20mph limits" is if you could see how average journey times changed as a result of introducing the 20mpg limits. You need to have data from before and after the change and be able to take into account the impact of any other changes that were taking place at the same time.
.

Where it has most impact is out of rush hour when quieter. There are parts of the A40 for example that are 20 mph that used to be 40 I think, so you have doubled journey times heading west in that area.

It used to be feasible to drive through London on a Saturday morning but now you are being forced to use the M25 and add far more miles, driven on what must be the worst motorway in the UK.

[NomduJour]

oyster said:

If they're electric, why does it matter?

Get with the (next) programme:

https://www.euractiv.com/section/transport/news/sw...

[Otispunkmeyer]

Controversial take for someone who likes driving and doesn't think too well of the "20's plenty" brigade: I was recently in London, as in I had to actually drive all the way in because who's paying a small fortune for a train ticket? Went in my EV of course, less I want to get plied with extra charges, and I had many 20mph roads to drive around. I actually thought it was quite nice cruising around at that speed, it sorta actually worked. I think 25 MPH would probably be a nice halfway house in a lot of cases where 20mph perhaps did feel a little too slow.

I mean, it didn't stop the bloke in the Mk3 Ford Focus from approaching the back of my car at a ridiculous rate of speed, slamming on, then spearing out into the oncoming side of the road, overtaking 3 cars and a bus and then barrelling through a red-light crossing where there was a mum with a pushchair. Thankfully she looked before she stepped out. Doesn't matter if you drop the limits from 30 to 20 if the people that cause the problems wouldn't have heeded them in the first place. But I had a nice time.

Which brings me onto my next question...

Why do we tend to go for increments like 10, 20, 30 etc whereas in the US you'll often find 15, 25, 45, 55 etc I often find the latter speeds a bit more natural or flowing when they're used in their respective environments.

Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Wednesday 10th January 11:27

[oyster]

Tom8 said:

oyster said:

Tom8 said:

Genius idea. Slow vehicles down so they operate as inefficiently as possible and belch out fumes for everyone to inhale. Then claim you're doing it for safety/the climate change/pollution.

Still, London voted for him they are welcome to him.

If they're electric, why does it matter?

They aren't though are they. And those without 50k+ to spend on a vehicle generally drive older more pollution cars and vans. But apart from that you are spot on.

Those without £50k to spend, tend not to drive through the very centre of London.

[Haltamer]

JagLover said:

It used to be feasible to drive through London on a Saturday morning but now you are being forced to use the M25 and add far more miles, driven on what must be the worst motorway in the UK.

I will always pause to lament the agony that is crossing London.

Going 18 Miles to see a friend in White city takes 1hr 10 - Infinity via the A406; Or 1hr 30ish via the M25.

Public Transport isn't stunning for crossing over:- Still 1hr 46+ and that's when the timetables are favourable.

Hmm, Someone should run a vehicle ferry service - Dartford to Kew Bridge; M25 -> M4 Interconnect

[JagLover]

Haltamer said:

JagLover said:

It used to be feasible to drive through London on a Saturday morning but now you are being forced to use the M25 and add far more miles, driven on what must be the worst motorway in the UK.

I will always pause to lament the agony that is crossing London.

Parents live in South East London and I do tell them it is one of the worst parts of the country to get to, and this has got considerably worse in the past decade.

[bloomen]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Don't care. I live in London suburbs and the last time I drove in Central London was December 2018, and that was to collect the wife from hospital post op as she was too fragile to take public transport. Prior to that, probably not for 20 years.

On the rare occasions I'm in central London I look at the cars crawling along in wonder and think 'who are you?' 'why are you driving HERE?'

[The Selfish Gene]

oyster said:

Tom8 said:

oyster said:

Tom8 said:

Genius idea. Slow vehicles down so they operate as inefficiently as possible and belch out fumes for everyone to inhale. Then claim you're doing it for safety/the climate change/pollution.

Still, London voted for him they are welcome to him.

If they're electric, why does it matter?

They aren't though are they. And those without 50k+ to spend on a vehicle generally drive older more pollution cars and vans. But apart from that you are spot on.

Those without £50k to spend, tend not to drive through the very centre of London.

That's a bit of a random comment Oyster. I drive through centre of London multiple times a week, by choice because the public transport is st, failure, stabby and too expensive. I see many people driving through the centre that don't (probably) want to spend 50k on a boring stbox EV.

They'd rather spend say, 30k on a new van, or 5k on a older car.

I literally drive through central for meetings, social events, to attend my clubs.

to add the problem with 20 bks is, so many idiots that do 20 everywhere now (mostly Uber s in st Prius things) - even when it isn't actually 20mph, even on the outskirts of London. I have to overtake a lot more now (when in the car) than I ever had to before.

Obviously when using the bikes, it's a lot faster than 20 everywhere which is super fun.

[Police State]

Golden Guinea Charlie said:

Who to believe, TomTom, or TFL?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67916...

It is not a realistic option to believe TFL; they are institutional liars, and generally say what Kahn wants them to say.

[NomduJour]

bloomen said:

On the rare occasions I'm in central London I look at the cars crawling along in wonder and think 'who are you?' 'why are you driving HERE?'

Most vehicles in the middle of town aren’t private cars and are there because they need to be.

Problem is that journey times have increased everywhere - eg getting to the M1 or A1 from SW Zone 1/2 now takes an awful lot longer than it used to, even if you avoid the direct routes and head right out to the badlands of the North Circular.

[rscott]

bloomen said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Don't care. I live in London suburbs and the last time I drove in Central London was December 2018, and that was to collect the wife from hospital post op as she was too fragile to take public transport. Prior to that, probably not for 20 years.

On the rare occasions I'm in central London I look at the cars crawling along in wonder and think 'who are you?' 'why are you driving HERE?'

Same here. Takes under an hour by train from home to Liverpool Street (assuming no appearance of the dreaded bus replacement service!), then I'll happily get around by DLR, tube or bus. I think we've used taxis about 3 times in the last 5 years - once when we were at risk of missing the last train home and twice when there were 4 of us heading to and from an hotel..
We've had to take the horsebox in a few times (friend qualified for what used to be the Olympia horse show, now held at ExCel) - that was a horrible journey, even in a 3.5t box.

What I have noticed over the last 30 years since I lived in South Kensington - no I'm not rich, was a poor student there - is how much better the air is in central London.