The great "working from home" debate - your thoughts?
Discussion
It's been the elephant in the room for some folks.
It's been a "do what you want" for others.
So, that said, what is the PH collective's experience on working from home?
Personally, I work from home pretty much all the time. I might pop into the office once or twice a month but it's usually just for a few hours. I get more done at home, but some of my colleagues prefer working from the office (mainly those who live in a shared house [we're London-based], or who have young kids that distract them after school).
Here are a couple of articles from different sites if you want a read:
Gov.UK:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/millions-to-ben...
The Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/nov/21/di...
Daily Mail:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12913011/...
The Sun:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/24104784/working-fro...
Hopefully that covers a few views.
It's been a "do what you want" for others.
So, that said, what is the PH collective's experience on working from home?
Personally, I work from home pretty much all the time. I might pop into the office once or twice a month but it's usually just for a few hours. I get more done at home, but some of my colleagues prefer working from the office (mainly those who live in a shared house [we're London-based], or who have young kids that distract them after school).
Here are a couple of articles from different sites if you want a read:
Gov.UK:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/millions-to-ben...
The Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/nov/21/di...
Daily Mail:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12913011/...
The Sun:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/24104784/working-fro...
Hopefully that covers a few views.
I used to commute to office 4 days a week
Now it’s supposed to be once a week, but a couple of times a month in reality (free EV charging 4 hours)
They sold half of their buildings. So associated cafes/on-site gym/support staff all gone.
Personally it’s good for me, couldn’t be happier.
If commute was still 4 days I would have retired by now. If I actually had to be there more than once a week i’ll call it a day also.
Now it’s supposed to be once a week, but a couple of times a month in reality (free EV charging 4 hours)
They sold half of their buildings. So associated cafes/on-site gym/support staff all gone.
Personally it’s good for me, couldn’t be happier.
If commute was still 4 days I would have retired by now. If I actually had to be there more than once a week i’ll call it a day also.
We had a big thread on this in NP&E a few months back, but I don't think google search works for NP&E threads.
I think the gist of that thread is that WFH can work just as well for the employer, or better, than office based staff, but you need the right staff and right processes and procedures. For the employee it can be far better without commuting time and costs.
I think the gist of that thread is that WFH can work just as well for the employer, or better, than office based staff, but you need the right staff and right processes and procedures. For the employee it can be far better without commuting time and costs.
Our staff mostly work from home, but come into the office for meetings when needed. Provided everyone does in person meetings where possible it works well and our productivity is much higher. The amount of time wasted on people commuting was significant and greatly reduced.
I have noticed that when I do go into the office (once per week generally), in am much less productive as there is always much more talking that people want to do. It's nice to be social, but losing 15 minutes to a non work related 'chat' is something that I can ill afford at work.
We have some people that are now so accustomed to not coming it that they can be difficult around meetings, but robust management and clear expectations resolves that.
To go back to office working would be a logistical and efficiency nightmare. We would lose huge amounts of time to commuting, people would get less done, we don't have enough desk space in our offices for everyone (hot desking policy) and there is no parking in offices, so not everyone can come in and it's certainly not convenient.
I appreciate that I am working with a dedicated professional staff group who are invested in their work, so it may be different to those for whom work is 'just a job' and home working may be less effective.
I have noticed that when I do go into the office (once per week generally), in am much less productive as there is always much more talking that people want to do. It's nice to be social, but losing 15 minutes to a non work related 'chat' is something that I can ill afford at work.
We have some people that are now so accustomed to not coming it that they can be difficult around meetings, but robust management and clear expectations resolves that.
To go back to office working would be a logistical and efficiency nightmare. We would lose huge amounts of time to commuting, people would get less done, we don't have enough desk space in our offices for everyone (hot desking policy) and there is no parking in offices, so not everyone can come in and it's certainly not convenient.
I appreciate that I am working with a dedicated professional staff group who are invested in their work, so it may be different to those for whom work is 'just a job' and home working may be less effective.
Edited by MikeM6 on Sunday 31st December 09:00
I’ve been fully working from home for four years now. It has pro’s and con’s.
I am more productive working remotely but then I find work is concentrated with no pauses for chats or talking to a colleague or walking about on a site, this isn’t good for the head. Saving on commuting costs is great, never missing a delivery and the convenience to do school runs etc is handy.
I am more productive working remotely but then I find work is concentrated with no pauses for chats or talking to a colleague or walking about on a site, this isn’t good for the head. Saving on commuting costs is great, never missing a delivery and the convenience to do school runs etc is handy.
These threads regularly come up as if there's some kind of "one size fits all" universal truth.
There isn't.
It suits some job roles and it doesn't suit others.
It suits some personality types and it doesn't suit others.
Some staff are knobs about it and some employers are knobs about it.
I do a role where technically I barely ever need to visit the office but I've found it's a pretty miserable existence spending your entire working life on Teams calls so I go to the office at least three days a week usually.
There isn't.
It suits some job roles and it doesn't suit others.
It suits some personality types and it doesn't suit others.
Some staff are knobs about it and some employers are knobs about it.
I do a role where technically I barely ever need to visit the office but I've found it's a pretty miserable existence spending your entire working life on Teams calls so I go to the office at least three days a week usually.
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: These threads regularly come up as if there's some kind of "one size fits all" universal truth.
There isn't.
It suits some job roles and it doesn't suit others.
It suits some personality types and it doesn't suit others.
Some staff are knobs about it and some employers are knobs about it.
I do a role where technically I barely ever need to visit the office but I've found it's a pretty miserable existence spending your entire working life on Teams calls so I go to the office at least three days a week usually.
Yep spot on There isn't.
It suits some job roles and it doesn't suit others.
It suits some personality types and it doesn't suit others.
Some staff are knobs about it and some employers are knobs about it.
I do a role where technically I barely ever need to visit the office but I've found it's a pretty miserable existence spending your entire working life on Teams calls so I go to the office at least three days a week usually.
I changed careers about a year ago - from a public sector role I enjoyed but was just bored in, into the private sector - WFH 24/7 with no office at all. Although I'd sometimes worked from home in my old job, I had an office nearby and had a close relationship with all my team who were virtually friends. So there was a strong connection with them.
For me, WFH has been mostly positive, with only a few drawbacks.
Flexibility
This is an insanely good benefit and makes the whole WFH thing worth it.
I often sleep poorly but knowing I can get up at 9am or even later sometimes is a good thing. I try to keep a better schedule but on days when I'm naturally tired or just had a difficult week, I can not worry about being up at 6am for a train or car journey for an 8+ hour day in an office where I am exhausted.
I work in cybersecurity and what I really like is sometimes if I am really bored or not doing much, I can do some work on a Saturday/Sunday or evenings meaning that most of the week is easier. For example, if I have a client report to do, I could log on today and do 2-3 hours uninterupted work meaning that when I return to work, its virtually done and completed. This is a balance obviously, it only works if you're sat at home doing nothing and for me, I prefer this style than the whole rigid "I am off today and will not start until 9am Monday" approach. Especially as the normal working week has a ton of things outside of your control so it's harder to predict or manage your time.
Similarly, if my partner is working late then I can do a longer day, like 9am to 9pm (with breaks) and just catch-up on things.
Obvious stuff like, I often go to the gym during work, do the food shop, do a walk/run go for coffee, watch Netflix etc. It's all balanced out as the work gets done and I do longer hours when things get busy.
Team Bonding
It's taken a while but after about one year I do have some feeling of rapport with people in my company. I've met only 2 of them in "real life". The rest are audio calls via Teams, the odd video call and a lot of teams messages.
It's not as good as the in person/office environment was but then I was in the public sector and the nature of my work meant it was a very close working relationship. Hard to match that.
It's OK but I do miss having an office *SOMEWHERE* in the UK but not much or often.
Problems and isolation
I have personally found it terrible when I'm really stuck/stressed and worried as I am home alone, and have very little support. My own team are OK but a few times I've really been in trouble and felt on my own.
This is probably my own unique situation in that my team are global, so often during UK hours it may just be a few of us or just me... then America come online.
Anyway, there's no beating having that office environment and learning opportunities of just listening or watching how someone works. I really do miss that as I have had to learn a lot by myself and know for a fact I would have learned loads more/better things by being in an office.
Conclusion
Anyway, I could go on forever. For me, the benefits are 80% tipped in favour of WFH.
I also think that rather than ask "Why WFH" or "What's good about WFH" or "should WFH be reduced" as the right wing media and some people say... ask the other question:
Why would you go into an office everyday? Sounds a bit made for a lot of positions when:
1) You're given a company laptop
2) Your work is all online using internet-based/VPN-accessible systems
3) You and your 10/100/1000 colleagues are travelling several hours everyday of the year to a central location
4) Some of this time you're in an office is really busy but other times you're all caught up and so it fluxuates.... yet you still come in everyday
5) More likely to get sick
6) More expensive for car/trains (don't even get me started on commuting by train and the costs/strikes involved in this disgraceful part of our country)
7) People's lives don't stop between 9-5. You have physio/dentist/doctor/school pickup/plumber etc all during working hours. Treat people like adults and let them balance their life around work.
8) not everyone is the same. Some hate background noise, some love socialising, some are chatty, some want music on, some like it hot, some want a window open, some hate sitting with their back to the wall, some prefer mornings, some like afternoons.... so why force everyone to work the same? Mental.
I work way better/harder and more productively in my WFH role than I would going into an office.
For me, WFH has been mostly positive, with only a few drawbacks.
Flexibility
This is an insanely good benefit and makes the whole WFH thing worth it.
I often sleep poorly but knowing I can get up at 9am or even later sometimes is a good thing. I try to keep a better schedule but on days when I'm naturally tired or just had a difficult week, I can not worry about being up at 6am for a train or car journey for an 8+ hour day in an office where I am exhausted.
I work in cybersecurity and what I really like is sometimes if I am really bored or not doing much, I can do some work on a Saturday/Sunday or evenings meaning that most of the week is easier. For example, if I have a client report to do, I could log on today and do 2-3 hours uninterupted work meaning that when I return to work, its virtually done and completed. This is a balance obviously, it only works if you're sat at home doing nothing and for me, I prefer this style than the whole rigid "I am off today and will not start until 9am Monday" approach. Especially as the normal working week has a ton of things outside of your control so it's harder to predict or manage your time.
Similarly, if my partner is working late then I can do a longer day, like 9am to 9pm (with breaks) and just catch-up on things.
Obvious stuff like, I often go to the gym during work, do the food shop, do a walk/run go for coffee, watch Netflix etc. It's all balanced out as the work gets done and I do longer hours when things get busy.
Team Bonding
It's taken a while but after about one year I do have some feeling of rapport with people in my company. I've met only 2 of them in "real life". The rest are audio calls via Teams, the odd video call and a lot of teams messages.
It's not as good as the in person/office environment was but then I was in the public sector and the nature of my work meant it was a very close working relationship. Hard to match that.
It's OK but I do miss having an office *SOMEWHERE* in the UK but not much or often.
Problems and isolation
I have personally found it terrible when I'm really stuck/stressed and worried as I am home alone, and have very little support. My own team are OK but a few times I've really been in trouble and felt on my own.
This is probably my own unique situation in that my team are global, so often during UK hours it may just be a few of us or just me... then America come online.
Anyway, there's no beating having that office environment and learning opportunities of just listening or watching how someone works. I really do miss that as I have had to learn a lot by myself and know for a fact I would have learned loads more/better things by being in an office.
Conclusion
Anyway, I could go on forever. For me, the benefits are 80% tipped in favour of WFH.
I also think that rather than ask "Why WFH" or "What's good about WFH" or "should WFH be reduced" as the right wing media and some people say... ask the other question:
Why would you go into an office everyday? Sounds a bit made for a lot of positions when:
1) You're given a company laptop
2) Your work is all online using internet-based/VPN-accessible systems
3) You and your 10/100/1000 colleagues are travelling several hours everyday of the year to a central location
4) Some of this time you're in an office is really busy but other times you're all caught up and so it fluxuates.... yet you still come in everyday
5) More likely to get sick
6) More expensive for car/trains (don't even get me started on commuting by train and the costs/strikes involved in this disgraceful part of our country)
7) People's lives don't stop between 9-5. You have physio/dentist/doctor/school pickup/plumber etc all during working hours. Treat people like adults and let them balance their life around work.
8) not everyone is the same. Some hate background noise, some love socialising, some are chatty, some want music on, some like it hot, some want a window open, some hate sitting with their back to the wall, some prefer mornings, some like afternoons.... so why force everyone to work the same? Mental.
I work way better/harder and more productively in my WFH role than I would going into an office.
I’m a Ltd Co contractor/consultant.
I only take clients that accept me working from my own office, anyone else can FO.
I don’t mind the odd visit to their premises for kickoffs/reviews etc but that’s it.
It’s the flexibility that it offers, especially with 5-15 clients at any one time. I couldn’t service other clients if I was stuck with one all day every day. It’s almost at the point where there’s nothing a client could realistically offer to make me do it.
Went FT WFH (home office) in Feb 2020 as many did (!) and have never been back in a client office other than for the occasional meeting, site walkdown or survey. Turnover has doubled, billable hours increased by 30%
I get to have breakfast with my kids and see them when they get home from school. Just that basic act of spending more time with them is worth it alone.
I spend a lot more time with my wife - and our relationship has grown stronger. We go out for coffee a few times a week, have lunch together, cook dinner together or take turns (it always used to be “her” job).
I have my dogs with me virtually 24/7 too which is lovely.
I only take clients that accept me working from my own office, anyone else can FO.
I don’t mind the odd visit to their premises for kickoffs/reviews etc but that’s it.
It’s the flexibility that it offers, especially with 5-15 clients at any one time. I couldn’t service other clients if I was stuck with one all day every day. It’s almost at the point where there’s nothing a client could realistically offer to make me do it.
Went FT WFH (home office) in Feb 2020 as many did (!) and have never been back in a client office other than for the occasional meeting, site walkdown or survey. Turnover has doubled, billable hours increased by 30%
I get to have breakfast with my kids and see them when they get home from school. Just that basic act of spending more time with them is worth it alone.
I spend a lot more time with my wife - and our relationship has grown stronger. We go out for coffee a few times a week, have lunch together, cook dinner together or take turns (it always used to be “her” job).
I have my dogs with me virtually 24/7 too which is lovely.
Edited by Lefty on Sunday 31st December 12:23
I think employers are really going to need to think about it with regards recruitment and pay where they offer jobs for well educated people that cant be done from home. It's been in the news that teaching recruitment is starting to get a bit of a problem because the types of people that go in for that could so easily do other desk based professions that can be done from home. And one of my friends has just packed up being a nurse to study for a desk based medical job so she can work from home and do family stuff more easily around it.
Lots of people love being out and about and doing practical things but if you have a degree and a young family to look after is it more practical to have to go to a school or hospital 5 days a week or to work 2 days in the office and 3 at home doing something else?
Lots of people love being out and about and doing practical things but if you have a degree and a young family to look after is it more practical to have to go to a school or hospital 5 days a week or to work 2 days in the office and 3 at home doing something else?
I’ve worked at home for many years and enjoyed it. When my children were younger it meant that I could take them to and pick them from school. I worked in the evening and never “short changed” my employer.
Right now is interesting: There is just me in the house, and I miss the social interaction. I have ventured into the office but there was hardly anybody there.
Right now is interesting: There is just me in the house, and I miss the social interaction. I have ventured into the office but there was hardly anybody there.
I quite enjoyed WFH, but grew to loathe it. Stuck in the house all day, little or no social interaction, difficult to work collaboratively all became how I felt sat at home.
I now enjoy a commute again (either cycling for exercise or listening to Radio 4 in the car), it provides a line between work and play, enjoying the human interaction again and feel able to achieve more in a more expedient time frame.
I realise this does not suit everyone, but I am glad I am back in the office.....
I now enjoy a commute again (either cycling for exercise or listening to Radio 4 in the car), it provides a line between work and play, enjoying the human interaction again and feel able to achieve more in a more expedient time frame.
I realise this does not suit everyone, but I am glad I am back in the office.....
Quite a number of my colleagues took advantage of the pandemic, moved further away from the office, such that daily commute was not possible, and had their work contracts amended from office-based to home-based.
Probably got nicer homes too; no longer living in stty London shoe-boxes.
Probably got nicer homes too; no longer living in s
tty London shoe-boxes.I think it's great, a bit of a skive to be completely honest. I get a couple of extra hours in bed, save on fuel/parking, lunch is obviously a lot cheaper at home, and there's the work/life flexibility. I also surf the internet far more at home 
I'm definitely sure I'm less productive (if anything). However in my role only I can do my work (its not really something I would delegate). All this means is that I'm working longer hours to do the same amount of work (e.g. evenings/weekends) which annoys my wife somewhat, but it reduces the guilt of skiving.
I'm curious as to how people are assessing that they are more productive. How does this manifest itself, especially in an office role? I work in Finance and there's a fixed amount of work. We couldn't suddenly create "more work". Has your Company reduced headcount as a result, or have profits increased noticeably? Also WHY would you want to be more productive? Surely if you've done the work you get paid to do why do "more"?
I'm definitely sure I'm less productive (if anything). However in my role only I can do my work (its not really something I would delegate). All this means is that I'm working longer hours to do the same amount of work (e.g. evenings/weekends) which annoys my wife somewhat, but it reduces the guilt of skiving.
I'm curious as to how people are assessing that they are more productive. How does this manifest itself, especially in an office role? I work in Finance and there's a fixed amount of work. We couldn't suddenly create "more work". Has your Company reduced headcount as a result, or have profits increased noticeably? Also WHY would you want to be more productive? Surely if you've done the work you get paid to do why do "more"?
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: These threads regularly come up as if there's some kind of "one size fits all" universal truth.
There isn't.
It suits some job roles and it doesn't suit others.
It suits some personality types and it doesn't suit others.
Some staff are knobs about it and some employers are knobs about it.
I do a role where technically I barely ever need to visit the office but I've found it's a pretty miserable existence spending your entire working life on Teams calls so I go to the office at least three days a week usually.
This, except I find it really hard to work in the office so only go in about once a month. I see customers in person a bit more often than that, and I'd guess I average two Zoom/Teams calls a day. Most of my time is spent designing and quoting, and supporting the other designers.There isn't.
It suits some job roles and it doesn't suit others.
It suits some personality types and it doesn't suit others.
Some staff are knobs about it and some employers are knobs about it.
I do a role where technically I barely ever need to visit the office but I've found it's a pretty miserable existence spending your entire working life on Teams calls so I go to the office at least three days a week usually.
We have a policy about remote working and %age time in the office, but it is applied with consideration and intelligence - I'm not sure that's the case everywhere.
Countdown said:
I think it's great, a bit of a skive to be completely honest. I get a couple of extra hours in bed, save on fuel/parking, lunch is obviously a lot cheaper at home, and there's the work/life flexibility. I also surf the internet far more at home
I'm definitely sure I'm less productive (if anything). However in my role only I can do my work (its not really something I would delegate). All this means is that I'm working longer hours to do the same amount of work (e.g. evenings/weekends) which annoys my wife somewhat, but it reduces the guilt of skiving.
I'm curious as to how people are assessing that they are more productive. How does this manifest itself, especially in an office role? I work in Finance and there's a fixed amount of work. We couldn't suddenly create "more work". Has your Company reduced headcount as a result, or have profits increased noticeably? Also WHY would you want to be more productive? Surely if you've done the work you get paid to do why do "more"?
Sounds like your role has a very “fixed” output/outcome of work. That’s not necessarily the case everywhere and the “product” can be done to a variable quality, longevity, maintainability etc. I'm definitely sure I'm less productive (if anything). However in my role only I can do my work (its not really something I would delegate). All this means is that I'm working longer hours to do the same amount of work (e.g. evenings/weekends) which annoys my wife somewhat, but it reduces the guilt of skiving.
I'm curious as to how people are assessing that they are more productive. How does this manifest itself, especially in an office role? I work in Finance and there's a fixed amount of work. We couldn't suddenly create "more work". Has your Company reduced headcount as a result, or have profits increased noticeably? Also WHY would you want to be more productive? Surely if you've done the work you get paid to do why do "more"?
Countdown said:
I'm curious as to how people are assessing that they are more productive. How does this manifest itself, especially in an office role? I work in Finance and there's a fixed amount of work. We couldn't suddenly create "more work". Has your Company reduced headcount as a result, or have profits increased noticeably? Also WHY would you want to be more productive? Surely if you've done the work you get paid to do why do "more"?
I lead (but don't people-manage) a team of system designers. It's not 100% scientific, but we measure number of designs/quotes created, total value of quotes, conversion rate, delta between quoted and achieved margin on jobs (that's a passable indicator of how thorough and accurate the design was).When we shifted to home working none of those got worse; the throughput based ones got a little bit better in general, across the whole team.
If throughput increases we can quote for some opportunities we might otherwise not have bothered with - the ones where Sales don't feel well engaged - and if we can win even a few of those it's often quite nice for turnover.
More recently it's harder to measure as we've also expanded quite a bit. Two members of the team rather like being in the office, a couple love spending time with customers, and some of us would mostly like to be in our safety-caves at home. We assign designers to customers accordingly whenever we can, while still making everyone do all of the job.
Not perfect, and it won't suit everyone, but it seems to be going OK for us, and I'm pretty certain that offering remote work helped with recruitment.
scenario8 said:
Just to toss in that speaking as someone who visits multiple domestic settings each day “a lot” of people, at least in London and the near Home Counties, do not have suitable working environments at home.
.
Exactly. Last summer I had to phone my insurer. I could barely understand anything he was saying because of traffic noise. He said he was working from home and had the window open because of the heat. That employee was not being more efficient at home..
Having commuted in to London for 30 years and getting on in life, the pandemic was a God send. I’ve been to the office once in 3 years. I’m responsible, deliver to a high standard on time and my employer treats me as a grown up.
Save massively on commuting, London extortionate food pricing, have so much more time to do what I want and as I’m still “London based” still get London waiting.
I’m never going back to the office and I’ve told them that
Save massively on commuting, London extortionate food pricing, have so much more time to do what I want and as I’m still “London based” still get London waiting.
I’m never going back to the office and I’ve told them that
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