Tower block closed, discovered unsafe as not built to plan
Discussion
"Barton House 'not built according to plans' says councillor"
Sounds like the builders pulled a fast one 65 years ago and it has only just discovered.
Or some has been keeping quiet and finally blabbed/got caught out.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-6741...
Sounds like the builders pulled a fast one 65 years ago and it has only just discovered.
Or some has been keeping quiet and finally blabbed/got caught out.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-6741...
cirian75 said:
GliderRider said:
The pictured crack between the wooden door frame and the wall is nothing unusual. That's not to say the evacuation is unjustified based upon other evidence though.
Part of the building I work at is 155 years old, we have many cracks.
My house was built in the 1890s. Half the first floor is out of true. The cornices have been refilled a couple of times in 25 years here and there. Recent cracks on the ceilings, chimney breast. A front garden wall butting up against the house is nearly an inch out judging by the original mortar. Almost every building from the 60s and 70s will have concrete cancer and thus “not built to spec”
I don’t get why they’re just not saying, unless the info is available somewhere?
I don’t think fire/explosion robustness is guaranteed on anything 65 years old is it?
Not wishing to down play it or pretending I’m an expert, but seeing just a sliver of what I have and knowing what can slip through and possibly never come to light in operation, I bet there are tons of “potentially” dodgy buildings out there.
I don’t get why they’re just not saying, unless the info is available somewhere?
I don’t think fire/explosion robustness is guaranteed on anything 65 years old is it?
Not wishing to down play it or pretending I’m an expert, but seeing just a sliver of what I have and knowing what can slip through and possibly never come to light in operation, I bet there are tons of “potentially” dodgy buildings out there.
It’s a LPS (large panel system) building the discovered problem is the floors are inadequately tied to the walls.
LPS as originally developed had no effective ties between wall and floor. Self weight of the massive structure was supposed to hold everything together.
Then Ronan Point happened and the regs were rapidly changed to require all large buildings had ties between elements capable of resisting an accidental action aka gas explosion.
Looks like the original builders some how managed to avoid constructing said ties or the ties are inadequate for the accidental force. Moreover that local authority building inspectors also missed this. It would have been under construction at the time Ronan Point happened.
This won’t be first LPS tower where it’s discovered many year later the ties are missing or inadequate. I think every previous one where this problem has been discovered has been demolished rather than repaired.
LPS as originally developed had no effective ties between wall and floor. Self weight of the massive structure was supposed to hold everything together.
Then Ronan Point happened and the regs were rapidly changed to require all large buildings had ties between elements capable of resisting an accidental action aka gas explosion.
Looks like the original builders some how managed to avoid constructing said ties or the ties are inadequate for the accidental force. Moreover that local authority building inspectors also missed this. It would have been under construction at the time Ronan Point happened.
This won’t be first LPS tower where it’s discovered many year later the ties are missing or inadequate. I think every previous one where this problem has been discovered has been demolished rather than repaired.
Edited by b0rk on Wednesday 15th November 22:04
b0rk said:
It’s a LPS (large panel system) building the discovered problem is the floors are inadequately tied to the walls.
LPS as originally developed had no effective ties between wall and floor. Self weight of the massive structure was supposed to hold everything together.
Then Ronan Point happened and the regs were rapidly changed to require all large buildings had ties between elements capable of resisting an accidental action aka gas explosion.
Looks like the original builders some how managed to avoid constructing said ties or the ties are inadequate for the accidental force. Moreover that local authority building inspectors also missed this. It would have been under construction at the time Ronan Point happened.
This won’t be first LPS tower where it’s discovered many year later the ties are missing or inadequate. I think every previous one where this problem has been discovered has been demolished rather than repaired.
That's scary. Ronan Point should have been the end of poor design/construction like that. It's criminal if the spec was not followed.LPS as originally developed had no effective ties between wall and floor. Self weight of the massive structure was supposed to hold everything together.
Then Ronan Point happened and the regs were rapidly changed to require all large buildings had ties between elements capable of resisting an accidental action aka gas explosion.
Looks like the original builders some how managed to avoid constructing said ties or the ties are inadequate for the accidental force. Moreover that local authority building inspectors also missed this. It would have been under construction at the time Ronan Point happened.
This won’t be first LPS tower where it’s discovered many year later the ties are missing or inadequate. I think every previous one where this problem has been discovered has been demolished rather than repaired.
Edited by b0rk on Wednesday 15th November 22:04
98elise said:
b0rk said:
It’s a LPS (large panel system) building the discovered problem is the floors are inadequately tied to the walls.
LPS as originally developed had no effective ties between wall and floor. Self weight of the massive structure was supposed to hold everything together.
Then Ronan Point happened and the regs were rapidly changed to require all large buildings had ties between elements capable of resisting an accidental action aka gas explosion.
Looks like the original builders some how managed to avoid constructing said ties or the ties are inadequate for the accidental force. Moreover that local authority building inspectors also missed this. It would have been under construction at the time Ronan Point happened.
This won’t be first LPS tower where it’s discovered many year later the ties are missing or inadequate. I think every previous one where this problem has been discovered has been demolished rather than repaired.
That's scary. Ronan Point should have been the end of poor design/construction like that. It's criminal if the spec was not followed.LPS as originally developed had no effective ties between wall and floor. Self weight of the massive structure was supposed to hold everything together.
Then Ronan Point happened and the regs were rapidly changed to require all large buildings had ties between elements capable of resisting an accidental action aka gas explosion.
Looks like the original builders some how managed to avoid constructing said ties or the ties are inadequate for the accidental force. Moreover that local authority building inspectors also missed this. It would have been under construction at the time Ronan Point happened.
This won’t be first LPS tower where it’s discovered many year later the ties are missing or inadequate. I think every previous one where this problem has been discovered has been demolished rather than repaired.
Edited by b0rk on Wednesday 15th November 22:04
hidetheelephants said:
IRC the ties in system builds often depended on holes in the cast panels lining up and when they didn't the fixers would just move on to the next, which of course completely banjos the stress calculations. Hence Ronan Point and others.
It depends if your talking current system build or the “old” systems pre then post Ronan point.Current system builds will have some from of continuity rebar tying upper and lower panels and floor together. Lots of different ways of doing it. Might be projecting bars from the lower panel that fit into preformed pockets in upper and floor. Might be “dowelled” bars in to all three. Might be projecting bars set into the floor slab. The “pockets” would well should all be grouted.
The old pre Ronan Bison and Larsen–Nielson systems were really sketchy on connections. They basically had a pair of a 22mm dia pins cast into the top of each wall panel that were designed primarily to allow levelling by having an adjustable nut. These were grouted later. The force that each pin set could resist was from memory under 18kpa with physical testing post collapse finding the real capacity was lower still.
Post Ronan builds added interconnecting rebar at the floor/wall junction that was or should have been concreted.
In progress builds had blast angles fitted.
The original system was sufficiently under cooked for the eventual high rise application that very high winds with a combination of open and closed windows could over stress the weak joints, causing failure and potential collapse.
Mr Whippy said:
I guess it’s more the insurers worried than anything else at this point?
Not likely, probably the person in the council who is deemed the responsible person under the Building Safety Act.The act will require a suitable safety case to be produced and a fire risk assessment. If it's been discovered that there's a risk that a simple fire (as per Grenfell) or a gas cooker explosion (Ronan Point) had a realistic chance of bringing the building down then there's no way that would be deemed an acceptable risk.
If they either don't do the risk assessment, or they do it, find a problem and ignore it, then it's prison time for the person involved.
No one has been to prison over Grenfell, but the BSA brings in custodial sentences.
I'm going to ask, not in any way or with any malice or prejudice but is pretty much everyone who lives there Black ? it seems that the press (all over, not just the link) seems to have only found black people to interview who are residents.
Is this going to be the next "we are black so we were pushed into unsafe housing"? or is it just the media trying to get that started now by only showing black people ?
For the record, its a hateful design of building, it's been poorly built and I am curious as to whether the council put black people in there on purpose because they knew it was a bit s
t ?
Is this going to be the next "we are black so we were pushed into unsafe housing"? or is it just the media trying to get that started now by only showing black people ?
For the record, its a hateful design of building, it's been poorly built and I am curious as to whether the council put black people in there on purpose because they knew it was a bit s
t ?Getragdogleg said:
I'm going to ask, not in any way or with any malice or prejudice but is pretty much everyone who lives there Black ? it seems that the press (all over, not just the link) seems to have only found black people to interview who are residents.
Is this going to be the next "we are black so we were pushed into unsafe housing"? or is it just the media trying to get that started now by only showing black people ?
For the record, its a hateful design of building, it's been poorly built and I am curious as to whether the council put black people in there on purpose because they knew it was a bit st ?
Weird post. Is this going to be the next "we are black so we were pushed into unsafe housing"? or is it just the media trying to get that started now by only showing black people ?
For the record, its a hateful design of building, it's been poorly built and I am curious as to whether the council put black people in there on purpose because they knew it was a bit s
t ?Who at the council do you think is putting black people into s
t flats? Do you know how hard it is to get council accommodation?It may look a bit brutal on the outside but that's just how that era of building looked.
What do you think of this tower....
If it was stuffed full of black people by a council would you think it was s
t? It's far more brutal looking than Barton House even though it's younger.It's actualy Trellic Tower in London and very desirable, but you're going to need about 700k to buy a flat there!
98elise said:
Getragdogleg said:
I'm going to ask, not in any way or with any malice or prejudice but is pretty much everyone who lives there Black ? it seems that the press (all over, not just the link) seems to have only found black people to interview who are residents.
Is this going to be the next "we are black so we were pushed into unsafe housing"? or is it just the media trying to get that started now by only showing black people ?
For the record, its a hateful design of building, it's been poorly built and I am curious as to whether the council put black people in there on purpose because they knew it was a bit st ?
Weird post. Is this going to be the next "we are black so we were pushed into unsafe housing"? or is it just the media trying to get that started now by only showing black people ?
For the record, its a hateful design of building, it's been poorly built and I am curious as to whether the council put black people in there on purpose because they knew it was a bit s
t ?Who at the council do you think is putting black people into s
t flats? Do you know how hard it is to get council accommodation?It may look a bit brutal on the outside but that's just how that era of building looked.
What do you think of this tower....
If it was stuffed full of black people by a council would you think it was s
t? It's far more brutal looking than Barton House even though it's younger.It's actually Trellic Tower in London and very desirable, but you're going to need about 700k to buy a flat there!
Are the media just interviewing black people to get a narrative up that this sort of sub standard housing is where the black people live ? That's the bare bones of my question.
The one that caught fire in London was found to be substandard and had a higher demographic of poorer black/minority people.
As for Trellic, you couldn't pay me 700k to live there.
Getragdogleg said:
98elise said:
Getragdogleg said:
I'm going to ask, not in any way or with any malice or prejudice but is pretty much everyone who lives there Black ? it seems that the press (all over, not just the link) seems to have only found black people to interview who are residents.
Is this going to be the next "we are black so we were pushed into unsafe housing"? or is it just the media trying to get that started now by only showing black people ?
For the record, its a hateful design of building, it's been poorly built and I am curious as to whether the council put black people in there on purpose because they knew it was a bit st ?
Weird post. Is this going to be the next "we are black so we were pushed into unsafe housing"? or is it just the media trying to get that started now by only showing black people ?
For the record, its a hateful design of building, it's been poorly built and I am curious as to whether the council put black people in there on purpose because they knew it was a bit s
t ?Who at the council do you think is putting black people into s
t flats? Do you know how hard it is to get council accommodation?It may look a bit brutal on the outside but that's just how that era of building looked.
What do you think of this tower....
If it was stuffed full of black people by a council would you think it was s
t? It's far more brutal looking than Barton House even though it's younger.It's actually Trellic Tower in London and very desirable, but you're going to need about 700k to buy a flat there!
Are the media just interviewing black people to get a narrative up that this sort of sub standard housing is where the black people live ? That's the bare bones of my question.
The one that caught fire in London was found to be substandard and had a higher demographic of poorer black/minority people.
As for Trellic, you couldn't pay me 700k to live there.
If I could get a cheap flat in Kensington I would think I'd hit the jackpot. I worked in London most of my life and couldn't afford to live there, let alone in Kensington!
98elise said:
What do you think of this tower....
If it was stuffed full of black people by a council would you think it was st? It's far more brutal looking than Barton House even though it's younger.
It's actualy Trellic Tower in London and very desirable, but you're going to need about 700k to buy a flat there!
Of course, that says far more about the absolutely batsh*t London housing market than it does about the quality of Trellick Tower as a place to live; Bristol is also overpriced but I doubt anyone’s paying £700k to live in a 60’s concrete highrise in the middle of a council estate there.If it was stuffed full of black people by a council would you think it was s
t? It's far more brutal looking than Barton House even though it's younger.It's actualy Trellic Tower in London and very desirable, but you're going to need about 700k to buy a flat there!
Incidentally I recall reading how the Trellick flats (or indeed “apartments” as they’ve probably long since become) have all had to have major work as they’re essentially a concrete box with wooden panelling bolted in to form the frontages on either side, which of course were all rotten. I’m sure it’s probably structurally safe but it certainly didn’t sound particularly well put together.
Edited by Southerner on Thursday 16th November 14:36
b0rk said:
It’s a LPS (large panel system) building the discovered problem is the floors are inadequately tied to the walls.
LPS as originally developed had no effective ties between wall and floor. Self weight of the massive structure was supposed to hold everything together.
Then Ronan Point happened and the regs were rapidly changed to require all large buildings had ties between elements capable of resisting an accidental action aka gas explosion.
Looks like the original builders some how managed to avoid constructing said ties or the ties are inadequate for the accidental force. Moreover that local authority building inspectors also missed this. It would have been under construction at the time Ronan Point happened.
This won’t be first LPS tower where it’s discovered many year later the ties are missing or inadequate. I think every previous one where this problem has been discovered has been demolished rather than repaired.
News article says it was built in 1958, which is before Ronan Point. Were earlier buildings constructed this way supposed to have been strengthened after the regs changed or did they just hope they'd stay up?LPS as originally developed had no effective ties between wall and floor. Self weight of the massive structure was supposed to hold everything together.
Then Ronan Point happened and the regs were rapidly changed to require all large buildings had ties between elements capable of resisting an accidental action aka gas explosion.
Looks like the original builders some how managed to avoid constructing said ties or the ties are inadequate for the accidental force. Moreover that local authority building inspectors also missed this. It would have been under construction at the time Ronan Point happened.
This won’t be first LPS tower where it’s discovered many year later the ties are missing or inadequate. I think every previous one where this problem has been discovered has been demolished rather than repaired.
Edited by b0rk on Wednesday 15th November 22:04
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