Ice hockey player arrested for manslaughter
Discussion
I know there's a thread running in the Sport section but I think it's news now there's been an arrest -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamsh...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamsh...
Upinflames said:
Wow, not seen that before. WTF was he doing with his leg that high? It looks deliberate to me.
We'll just have to wait and see. The big question is on the skate contact with the other player prior to the incident - did their skates collide causing him to lose balance and the leg to kick up? The split in the other thread seems about 50/50 so guess we will just have to leave it to the police/CPS and the experts to analyse it and decide on the outcome
Upinflames said:
He raises his leg as he the other player skates in - a sort of ham-fisted block on the spur of the moment? 98elise said:
Upinflames said:
Wow, not seen that before. WTF was he doing with his leg that high? It looks deliberate to me.
On hearing of the arrest I thought he'd been arrested as a formality and to ensure they had legal representation etc but seeing that video it definitely looks deliberate to me as well.
Fastchas said:
Which would necessitate the need for a manslaughter charge, no?
Like I said, kind of hard to prove. It also raises the issue of personal jeopardy in dangerous sports. Eg Eubank vs Watson - Eubank definitely intended to hurt him... .collisions and fistfights are common in ice hockey, as are blade injuries, though obvs not deaths like this poor chaps.My son was kicked in the head and then had his head stamped on in a rugby match. The same player, a #5 so well built, back-heeled our #9, slightly built, in the head, knocking him out. He then kneed a back in the head, giving him concussion and fracturing his eye-socket. I videoed the match. I wanted to report it to the police as it was, to me, clearly criminal. The team, and it has to be said, my son as well, didn't want me to as it had 'happened on the pitch'.
Thuggery in dangerous sports should be stepped on, and with firmness. There's enough risk for players in rugby, and other contact sports, without deliberate criminal acts added into the mix.
Thuggery in dangerous sports should be stepped on, and with firmness. There's enough risk for players in rugby, and other contact sports, without deliberate criminal acts added into the mix.
To me it doesn't look reckless *beyond reasonable doubt*. He could be unbalanced.
If he *was* deliberately fending off with his skate I hope he has a lifetime of sleepless nights in front of him.
EDIT: Watched it again - looks accidental to me. Looks to me like he collides with a player and his feet have flown out from under him.
If he *was* deliberately fending off with his skate I hope he has a lifetime of sleepless nights in front of him.
EDIT: Watched it again - looks accidental to me. Looks to me like he collides with a player and his feet have flown out from under him.
Edited by BikeBikeBIke on Wednesday 15th November 11:19
BikeBikeBIke said:
To me it doesn't look reckless *beyond reasonable doubt*. He could be unbalanced.
If he *was* deliberately fending off with his skate I hope he has a lifetime of sleepless nights in front of him.
There are various differentiations of manslaughter in the legislation, but one which might be under consideration by the CPS is:If he *was* deliberately fending off with his skate I hope he has a lifetime of sleepless nights in front of him.
Manslaughter by gross negligence occurs when the offender is in breach of a duty of care towards the victim, the breach causes the death of the victim and, having regard to the risk involved, the offender’s conduct was so bad as to amount to a criminal act or omission.
Derek Smith said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
To me it doesn't look reckless *beyond reasonable doubt*. He could be unbalanced.
If he *was* deliberately fending off with his skate I hope he has a lifetime of sleepless nights in front of him.
There are various differentiations of manslaughter in the legislation, but one which might be under consideration by the CPS is:If he *was* deliberately fending off with his skate I hope he has a lifetime of sleepless nights in front of him.
Manslaughter by gross negligence occurs when the offender is in breach of a duty of care towards the victim, the breach causes the death of the victim and, having regard to the risk involved, the offender’s conduct was so bad as to amount to a criminal act or omission.
Unless they're going to argue that the barge against the player that triggers the whole thing was reckless? Which seems insane becaise I thought barging was part of the game.
I need to quit here, because I don't know the law and I don't know Ice Hockey. (Not that that ever stops me commenting!)
You should deffo have gone to the police regarding your lad's rugby match BTW. Those events go way beyond normal rough and tumble. Raking someone's back is one thing, serious assaults to the head and face, another.
Derek Smith said:
My son was kicked in the head and then had his head stamped on in a rugby match. The same player, a #5 so well built, back-heeled our #9, slightly built, in the head, knocking him out. He then kneed a back in the head, giving him concussion and fracturing his eye-socket. I videoed the match. I wanted to report it to the police as it was, to me, clearly criminal. The team, and it has to be said, my son as well, didn't want me to as it had 'happened on the pitch'.
Thuggery in dangerous sports should be stepped on, and with firmness. There's enough risk for players in rugby, and other contact sports, without deliberate criminal acts added into the mix.
I’m sorry to read of this, Derek. As I was to learn of the ice hockey player’s death.Thuggery in dangerous sports should be stepped on, and with firmness. There's enough risk for players in rugby, and other contact sports, without deliberate criminal acts added into the mix.
Tough sports involve tough players and tough actions. However, deliberate violent actions need, as you mentioned, calling out and their perpetrators removing from the sport.
There is a fine line between calling out whether an action was deliberate, granted. Yet when someone is injured in a serious manner, I feel the perpetrator must have the onus on them to highlight that it was not deliberate.
There will always be a (tiny) minority of players for whom causing an injury is seen as nothing. They need chucking out of all sports at every level.
IMHO.
BikeBikeBIke said:
You should deffo have gone to the police regarding your lad's rugby match BTW. Those events go way beyond normal rough and tumble. Raking someone's back is one thing, head and face another.
I agree. I was wrong to let the RFU deal with it. All three players did not play rugby again.The discipline panel punished the offender by giving him a 12-match ban. That's when my error hit home. My lad suffered from PCS for a couple of years and my thought was that criminal proceedings would have made his condition worse.
Until, for rugby, the RFU treat the matter of thuggery on the pitch seriously, nothing will change. The player was poor for the level of match. My lad, a #5, made him look inept, but then most other #5s in the division would have. It seemed to me that his coach had put him on the pitch to do exactly what he had done. Other teams in the division, when I spoke to them, agreed that the bloke was a danger. One committee member asked me where out captain was - my lad - and I told him of his injuries. He asked, 'Was it [the team's] #5?'.
Sorry to go on, but, as you say, I should have done more and it irritates me.
Derek Smith said:
My son was kicked in the head and then had his head stamped on in a rugby match. The same player, a #5 so well built, back-heeled our #9, slightly built, in the head, knocking him out. He then kneed a back in the head, giving him concussion and fracturing his eye-socket. I videoed the match. I wanted to report it to the police as it was, to me, clearly criminal. The team, and it has to be said, my son as well, didn't want me to as it had 'happened on the pitch'.
Thuggery in dangerous sports should be stepped on, and with firmness. There's enough risk for players in rugby, and other contact sports, without deliberate criminal acts added into the mix.
I get it that there are going to be injuries and even targeted taking someone out. Thuggery in dangerous sports should be stepped on, and with firmness. There's enough risk for players in rugby, and other contact sports, without deliberate criminal acts added into the mix.
In contact sports when it becomes an assault ontop of the initial action it becomes criminal. If he's stopped the course of play he can't continue to harm.
That person will emboldened to do the same to others.
What happened in the end? (Edit) noted.
Difficult one and especially in your previous line of work.
Edited by Hugo Stiglitz on Wednesday 15th November 11:49
I feel for you Derek. Hard to make these decisions when faced with the complexity of the situation at hand. I have to say I think my attitude has changed from “that’s the risk of sport” to “that has no place on a sports pitch”
As for the ice hockey situation, I haven’t - and won’t - watch the video of the incident. However, my days learning criminal law in law school remind me that there are broadly two categories: voluntary and involuntary.
I would guess that your assessment that this arrest falls under the involuntary category are right, unless the actions by the “offending” player amount to an intent to cause GBH (in which case it could be seen as voluntary manslaughter).
I would tend to agree that gross negligence manslaughter seems the most obvious, though potentially an alternative charge may be for manslaughter by and unlawful and dangerous act (MUDA).
Horrible situation all round.
As for the ice hockey situation, I haven’t - and won’t - watch the video of the incident. However, my days learning criminal law in law school remind me that there are broadly two categories: voluntary and involuntary.
I would guess that your assessment that this arrest falls under the involuntary category are right, unless the actions by the “offending” player amount to an intent to cause GBH (in which case it could be seen as voluntary manslaughter).
I would tend to agree that gross negligence manslaughter seems the most obvious, though potentially an alternative charge may be for manslaughter by and unlawful and dangerous act (MUDA).
Horrible situation all round.
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