Tax changes to earnings on Ebay, Airbnb, Uber etc.
Discussion
Apologies if a thread is already active on this, I had a brief look but didn't see anything obvious.
Just seen this news article pop up. I suppose it was only a matter of time. Airbnb and seems a pretty cut and dried deal because that is basically a form of employment - however, ebay is going to be a real can of worms, surely?
The article at first makes it sound like everyone is going to be taxed via this, then later on suggests only "traders" will be in line for the ebay tax. I'm well aware that a lot of people make a lot of money from business selling things on ebay as a side hustle.... But how are they going to tell from the ebay data who is a trader and who isnt? I've currently got a trailer on ebay for well over £1k, which I bought privately and is now surplus to use so I'm selling privately. It's not 100% clear from the article whether this is going to get me looked into or not. What's the betting that HMRC take a "prove you're NOT a trader" approach to this?
Of course, with the increased push for a cashless society, it's all part of the master plan to tax everyone on everything. I think I'll be going back to cash only small ad sales at this rate.....
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-...
Just seen this news article pop up. I suppose it was only a matter of time. Airbnb and seems a pretty cut and dried deal because that is basically a form of employment - however, ebay is going to be a real can of worms, surely?
The article at first makes it sound like everyone is going to be taxed via this, then later on suggests only "traders" will be in line for the ebay tax. I'm well aware that a lot of people make a lot of money from business selling things on ebay as a side hustle.... But how are they going to tell from the ebay data who is a trader and who isnt? I've currently got a trailer on ebay for well over £1k, which I bought privately and is now surplus to use so I'm selling privately. It's not 100% clear from the article whether this is going to get me looked into or not. What's the betting that HMRC take a "prove you're NOT a trader" approach to this?
Of course, with the increased push for a cashless society, it's all part of the master plan to tax everyone on everything. I think I'll be going back to cash only small ad sales at this rate.....
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-...
ChemicalChaos said:
. But how are they going to tell from the ebay data who is a trader and who isnt? I've currently got a trailer on ebay for well over £1k, which I bought privately and is now surplus to use so I'm selling privately.
I don't think it's that difficult to be honest.If you're selling lots of different second-hand things that a person might own as a matter of course then it won't be trading. If you're selling the same kind of stuff regularly (e.g. boxes of trainers, multiple clothes etc) then it's going to look more like you're a trader. I guess another factor would be if you're selling them for a profit.
Trading is trading - no matter what way you go about it.
The core definition of "trading" as far as HMRC is concerned is whether you are conducting an activity which has the aim of generating a profit.
Note that you don't HAVE to have made a profit to be considered as trading. You only need to have carried out the transactions with a VIEW to making a profit. Businesses make losses too.
So, if you are selling old personal stuff that you just want to get rid of, that is not trading.
However, if you are BUYING produce or goods with a view to selling them on as a profit, then you ARE trading.
Letting a property under Air BnB should be taxable under the "Holiday Lettings" tax rules.
An Uber driver is a self-employed taxi-driver, so should be return his/her profits under self assessment.
The core definition of "trading" as far as HMRC is concerned is whether you are conducting an activity which has the aim of generating a profit.
Note that you don't HAVE to have made a profit to be considered as trading. You only need to have carried out the transactions with a VIEW to making a profit. Businesses make losses too.
So, if you are selling old personal stuff that you just want to get rid of, that is not trading.
However, if you are BUYING produce or goods with a view to selling them on as a profit, then you ARE trading.
Letting a property under Air BnB should be taxable under the "Holiday Lettings" tax rules.
An Uber driver is a self-employed taxi-driver, so should be return his/her profits under self assessment.
bloomen said:
You tell them?
Just like you do now.
Yes - it's called "SELF Assessment" for a reason. The tax payer has a legal obligation to notify HMRC that they are carrying on a trade or some other activity (such as renting a property) that needs to be returned to HMRC under the Self Assessment system.Just like you do now.
Eric Mc said:
Trading is trading - no matter what way you go about it.
The core definition of "trading" as far as HMRC is concerned is whether you are conducting an activity which has the aim of generating a profit.
Note that you don't HAVE to have made a profit to be considered as trading. You only need to have carried out the transactions with a VIEW to making a profit. Businesses make losses too.
So, if you are selling old personal stuff that you just want to get rid of, that is not trading.
However, if you are BUYING produce or goods with a view to selling them on as a profit, then you ARE trading.
Letting a property under Air BnB should be taxable under the "Holiday Lettings" tax rules.
An Uber driver is a self-employed taxi-driver, so should be return his/her profits under self assessment.
Would that mean that people who buy concert tickets/new tech/cars/trainers etc with the intention to sell on fall into this? And if so, why haven’t they been stung already?The core definition of "trading" as far as HMRC is concerned is whether you are conducting an activity which has the aim of generating a profit.
Note that you don't HAVE to have made a profit to be considered as trading. You only need to have carried out the transactions with a VIEW to making a profit. Businesses make losses too.
So, if you are selling old personal stuff that you just want to get rid of, that is not trading.
However, if you are BUYING produce or goods with a view to selling them on as a profit, then you ARE trading.
Letting a property under Air BnB should be taxable under the "Holiday Lettings" tax rules.
An Uber driver is a self-employed taxi-driver, so should be return his/her profits under self assessment.
London424 said:
Eric Mc said:
Trading is trading - no matter what way you go about it.
The core definition of "trading" as far as HMRC is concerned is whether you are conducting an activity which has the aim of generating a profit.
Note that you don't HAVE to have made a profit to be considered as trading. You only need to have carried out the transactions with a VIEW to making a profit. Businesses make losses too.
So, if you are selling old personal stuff that you just want to get rid of, that is not trading.
However, if you are BUYING produce or goods with a view to selling them on as a profit, then you ARE trading.
Letting a property under Air BnB should be taxable under the "Holiday Lettings" tax rules.
An Uber driver is a self-employed taxi-driver, so should be return his/her profits under self assessment.
Would that mean that people who buy concert tickets/new tech/cars/trainers etc with the intention to sell on fall into this? And if so, why haven’t they been stung already?The core definition of "trading" as far as HMRC is concerned is whether you are conducting an activity which has the aim of generating a profit.
Note that you don't HAVE to have made a profit to be considered as trading. You only need to have carried out the transactions with a VIEW to making a profit. Businesses make losses too.
So, if you are selling old personal stuff that you just want to get rid of, that is not trading.
However, if you are BUYING produce or goods with a view to selling them on as a profit, then you ARE trading.
Letting a property under Air BnB should be taxable under the "Holiday Lettings" tax rules.
An Uber driver is a self-employed taxi-driver, so should be return his/her profits under self assessment.
)London424 said:
Eric Mc said:
Trading is trading - no matter what way you go about it.
The core definition of "trading" as far as HMRC is concerned is whether you are conducting an activity which has the aim of generating a profit.
Note that you don't HAVE to have made a profit to be considered as trading. You only need to have carried out the transactions with a VIEW to making a profit. Businesses make losses too.
So, if you are selling old personal stuff that you just want to get rid of, that is not trading.
However, if you are BUYING produce or goods with a view to selling them on as a profit, then you ARE trading.
Letting a property under Air BnB should be taxable under the "Holiday Lettings" tax rules.
An Uber driver is a self-employed taxi-driver, so should be return his/her profits under self assessment.
Would that mean that people who buy concert tickets/new tech/cars/trainers etc with the intention to sell on fall into this? And if so, why haven’t they been stung already?The core definition of "trading" as far as HMRC is concerned is whether you are conducting an activity which has the aim of generating a profit.
Note that you don't HAVE to have made a profit to be considered as trading. You only need to have carried out the transactions with a VIEW to making a profit. Businesses make losses too.
So, if you are selling old personal stuff that you just want to get rid of, that is not trading.
However, if you are BUYING produce or goods with a view to selling them on as a profit, then you ARE trading.
Letting a property under Air BnB should be taxable under the "Holiday Lettings" tax rules.
An Uber driver is a self-employed taxi-driver, so should be return his/her profits under self assessment.
The problem is proving that the purchases were NOT for personal use.
People get away with tax fraud because HMRC does not have the manpower or resources to chase these issues up. It is noting to do with the fraudsters being particularly clever. It's just that the agency tasked with dealing with them is not fit for purpose.
I'd imagine with ebay there's a few ways HMRC could codify trading for tax purposes specifically for that platform.
Volume of listings, 'new' items, total sales values (with one off high value items being subject to self declaration at point of listing), etc.
Yes, these could potentially be worked around - but most of the 'professional traders' on ebay are relying on those kinds of metrics (along with high volumes of positive feedback from buyers) as a marketing tool
Volume of listings, 'new' items, total sales values (with one off high value items being subject to self declaration at point of listing), etc.
Yes, these could potentially be worked around - but most of the 'professional traders' on ebay are relying on those kinds of metrics (along with high volumes of positive feedback from buyers) as a marketing tool
Eric Mc said:
London424 said:
Eric Mc said:
Trading is trading - no matter what way you go about it.
The core definition of "trading" as far as HMRC is concerned is whether you are conducting an activity which has the aim of generating a profit.
Note that you don't HAVE to have made a profit to be considered as trading. You only need to have carried out the transactions with a VIEW to making a profit. Businesses make losses too.
So, if you are selling old personal stuff that you just want to get rid of, that is not trading.
However, if you are BUYING produce or goods with a view to selling them on as a profit, then you ARE trading.
Letting a property under Air BnB should be taxable under the "Holiday Lettings" tax rules.
An Uber driver is a self-employed taxi-driver, so should be return his/her profits under self assessment.
Would that mean that people who buy concert tickets/new tech/cars/trainers etc with the intention to sell on fall into this? And if so, why haven’t they been stung already?The core definition of "trading" as far as HMRC is concerned is whether you are conducting an activity which has the aim of generating a profit.
Note that you don't HAVE to have made a profit to be considered as trading. You only need to have carried out the transactions with a VIEW to making a profit. Businesses make losses too.
So, if you are selling old personal stuff that you just want to get rid of, that is not trading.
However, if you are BUYING produce or goods with a view to selling them on as a profit, then you ARE trading.
Letting a property under Air BnB should be taxable under the "Holiday Lettings" tax rules.
An Uber driver is a self-employed taxi-driver, so should be return his/her profits under self assessment.
The problem is proving that the purchases were NOT for personal use.
People get away with tax fraud because HMRC does not have the manpower or resources to chase these issues up. It is noting to do with the fraudsters being particularly clever. It's just that the agency tasked with dealing with them is not fit for purpose.
A bit of tech to scrape from eBay/Facebook/ticketmaster etc for multiple reselling instances would be pretty straightforward.
Eric Mc said:
How do you know some of them haven't?
The problem is proving that the purchases were NOT for personal use.
People get away with tax fraud because HMRC does not have the manpower or resources to chase these issues up. It is noting to do with the fraudsters being particularly clever. It's just that the agency tasked with dealing with them is not fit for purpose.
They certainly appear to have some man power on this issue. A Polish friend of mine has had to pay a fine and go back three years on his ebay account to try and submit the information HMRC are asking for. The only area i can see them having an issue with is actual profit as it's very difficult to prove if someone hasn't kept detailed accounts of what they paid for an item, some of the stuff he sells might sit around for a year .He has a full time job so it's bits and pieces on the side and i believe he is genuine when he said he never gave it a thought due to relatively low volumes and profit.The problem is proving that the purchases were NOT for personal use.
People get away with tax fraud because HMRC does not have the manpower or resources to chase these issues up. It is noting to do with the fraudsters being particularly clever. It's just that the agency tasked with dealing with them is not fit for purpose.
Once his legitimate expenses incurred in relation to his trading are taken into account it certainly looks like he will owe them very little if anything at all, at least they collect a fine that might cover some of their costs to carry out the investigation .I also agree ignorance is no defence although i think this will catch a huge amount of people out.
ChemicalChaos said:
Apologies if a thread is already active on this, I had a brief look but didn't see anything obvious.
Just seen this news article pop up. I suppose it was only a matter of time. Airbnb and seems a pretty cut and dried deal because that is basically a form of employment - however, ebay is going to be a real can of worms, surely?
The article at first makes it sound like everyone is going to be taxed via this, then later on suggests only "traders" will be in line for the ebay tax. I'm well aware that a lot of people make a lot of money from business selling things on ebay as a side hustle.... But how are they going to tell from the ebay data who is a trader and who isnt? I've currently got a trailer on ebay for well over £1k, which I bought privately and is now surplus to use so I'm selling privately. It's not 100% clear from the article whether this is going to get me looked into or not. What's the betting that HMRC take a "prove you're NOT a trader" approach to this?
Of course, with the increased push for a cashless society, it's all part of the master plan to tax everyone on everything. I think I'll be going back to cash only small ad sales at this rate.....
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-...
Under 6k?Just seen this news article pop up. I suppose it was only a matter of time. Airbnb and seems a pretty cut and dried deal because that is basically a form of employment - however, ebay is going to be a real can of worms, surely?
The article at first makes it sound like everyone is going to be taxed via this, then later on suggests only "traders" will be in line for the ebay tax. I'm well aware that a lot of people make a lot of money from business selling things on ebay as a side hustle.... But how are they going to tell from the ebay data who is a trader and who isnt? I've currently got a trailer on ebay for well over £1k, which I bought privately and is now surplus to use so I'm selling privately. It's not 100% clear from the article whether this is going to get me looked into or not. What's the betting that HMRC take a "prove you're NOT a trader" approach to this?
Of course, with the increased push for a cashless society, it's all part of the master plan to tax everyone on everything. I think I'll be going back to cash only small ad sales at this rate.....
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-...
https://www.tax.service.gov.uk/guidance/check-non-...
Answer honestly, sounds like nothing to pay
Eric Mc said:
Why do you think you might?
Are you trading?
Are you running a business?
Did you buy those items with the intention of selling them for a profit?
You guys are getting off lightly for the moment. In the US the IRS have set the limit at $600 (so £500ish), once you have sold up to that value in one year fleabay are obliged to give your tax/SS number to the authorities so that they can tax you on your HUGE profit. Bunch of tnucs, it’s not about whether you’re a trader or not.Are you trading?
Are you running a business?
Did you buy those items with the intention of selling them for a profit?
Have given up on eBay as a result - for me it was more about giving things a second life rather than chucking them to landfill. After the postal service here put their prices up, and then the government wanting to tax you on the sales, it’s just not worth the bother. Landfill it is then.
First, they came for the ebayers. But I was not an ebayer, so I didn't say anything.
Next, they came for the Airbnbers, but I was not an air bnber, so I said nothing.
Then, they came for the Uberers, but I am not an uberer so I kept quiet.
Now, they've come for the weak lemon drinkers, and there was no-one to say kind words for me.
Next, they came for the Airbnbers, but I was not an air bnber, so I said nothing.
Then, they came for the Uberers, but I am not an uberer so I kept quiet.
Now, they've come for the weak lemon drinkers, and there was no-one to say kind words for me.
ridds said:
Can't think why HMRC haven't just hung around the exits of Car Boot Sales if they're that hard up. 
They have in the past but they are suffering from a chronic lack of staff for this type of surveillance work. None of my clients have received a tax inspection of any sort for almost 20 years. Back in the 80s around 10% of taxpayers would have some sort of tax inspection every year. Now it's almost Zero. Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff