The Lib Dems

[Tom8]

Seen this this morning,
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/tim-farron-b...

Combined with Ed Davey being hammered in the news studios over the Lib Dem policy to rejoin the EU making them look very similar to the Tories with EU lovers and haters.

I suppose the question is what are the Lib Dems for, just a wasted vote? They have been watching the tories implode, Labour not really doing anything and yet they are still tiny and their only previous strength of unity in policy now seems broken too. Can they recover and will anyone back them any longer?

[Rivenink]

Tom8 said:

Seen this this morning,
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/tim-farron-b...

Combined with Ed Davey being hammered in the news studios over the Lib Dem policy to rejoin the EU making them look very similar to the Tories with EU lovers and haters.

I suppose the question is what are the Lib Dems for, just a wasted vote? They have been watching the tories implode, Labour not really doing anything and yet they are still tiny and their only previous strength of unity in policy now seems broken too. Can they recover and will anyone back them any longer?

Starmer's Labour is dominating the centre-left. The Tories have vacated the centre-right. Seems like a sensible choice for them to fill that vacum.

Certainly in those constituencies where the Lib-Dems are the credible alternative to the Tories, they're likely to win.

[Gecko1978]

After the tory turned their back on me with IR35 and then Umbrella tax and finally extra 45% rate I felt libs were only option what with 20% VAT on school fees coming. Reality is I likely won't vote at all now and put more effort into applying for roles overseas. The political class have totally destroyed aspirational middle Britain

[JagLover]

This explains the row better

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66917374

Two thoughts are that firstly many of their voters are more likely to need a home to buy than to rent in the social housing sector. Secondly that the Lib Dems are enjoying success at the local level by opposing housebuilding while having a national target of 380K a year.

[P-Jay]

Tom8 said:

Seen this this morning,
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/tim-farron-b...

Combined with Ed Davey being hammered in the news studios over the Lib Dem policy to rejoin the EU making them look very similar to the Tories with EU lovers and haters.

I suppose the question is what are the Lib Dems for, just a wasted vote? They have been watching the tories implode, Labour not really doing anything and yet they are still tiny and their only previous strength of unity in policy now seems broken too. Can they recover and will anyone back them any longer?

Brexit is the Elephant in the room when it comes to politics. Any mention of it and everyone's back in their trenches blind firing at the other side.
It seems like a decent platform for the Libs, polls suggest feeling is more pro-Eu than in recent years and it gives them a USP. I guess they’re torn between ‘doing a Labour’ saying little and letting the Tories lose all by themselves, they could pick up a lot of protest votes from angry Tories who just can’t stand the idea of voting Labour, but don’t want to stay at home either. Or, they pick a platform they believe in and one that’s top priority for their core.

[StevieBee]

Tom8 said:

I suppose the question is what are the Lib Dems for?

It's a good question.

One of the mysteries over the past 10 years or so has been the inability of the LibDems to gain popularity when the opportunity to do so was presented to them on a plate.

My guess is that the electorate likes clear choice - left / right. LibDems seem to hover around the middle leaning a little to the left and sometimes a little to the right but neither in a manner that is convincing.

[Hants PHer]

StevieBee said:

One of the mysteries over the past 10 years or so has been the inability of the LibDems to gain popularity when the opportunity to do so was presented to them on a plate.

My guess is that the electorate likes clear choice - left / right. LibDems seem to hover around the middle leaning a little to the left and sometimes a little to the right but neither in a manner that is convincing.

Perhaps, but the Tory choice in the past three elections has been reasonably appealing - well, compared to the current government at least. In addition, we are now firmly into "It's been 13 years, everything is falling apart, change is needed" territory.

My sense is that there could be a big swing towards the LibDems at the next election in seats with a current Conservative majority. The Blue Wall, as it's termed. That swing might include tactical Labour voters but the majority may well be 1) disillusioned Tories who cannot stomach this government any longer, and 2) Tory Remainers who like the LibDems' pro-EU instincts. Some who vote LibDem could be both of the above.

[DeejRC]

A pro EU stance is an electoral disaster policy. Society has zero interest in going back into that bunfight, positive sentiment for the EU or not. It’s a lunatic idea that will be creamed come GE time.
The question then comes back to the economic pivot point of the Lib Dems, orange book or more left orientated thinking? Electorally, when the orange bookers were in the ascendancy, they had more success than previously or since. Of course they took a relative bath after the coalition, but that was largely because they picked woeful topics to champion in govt.

[g4ry13]

Their modern peak was with Charles Kennedy. They've been on the decline since getting into bed with the Conservative party and discarding their policies and trying to overturn democratic votes.

[boyse7en]

DeejRC said:

A pro EU stance is an electoral disaster policy. Society has zero interest in going back into that bunfight, positive sentiment for the EU or not. It’s a lunatic idea that will be creamed come GE time.

I disagree.
Without wanting this thread to descend into a pro/anti Brexit warzone, I live in a Tory-voting rural area in which many farmers and associated trades voted for Brexit, lured by promises of increased funding, release from the shackles of EU red tape and and the control of imported food stuffs.
Many of them feel that it has proved to be an unmitigated disaster, as the amount of red tape has doubles, funding hasn't materialised and food imports regulations have had limited benefits to domestic production. They think that closer ties with the EU (even if not outright rejoining the EU) is the only way forward.
In an area that hasn't had a Labour candidate garner 20% of the vote in living history, the Lib Dems could have a good run at gaining the seat if they can find a decent candidate.

[Tom8]

boyse7en said:

DeejRC said:

A pro EU stance is an electoral disaster policy. Society has zero interest in going back into that bunfight, positive sentiment for the EU or not. It’s a lunatic idea that will be creamed come GE time.

I disagree.
Without wanting this thread to descend into a pro/anti Brexit warzone, I live in a Tory-voting rural area in which many farmers and associated trades voted for Brexit, lured by promises of increased funding, release from the shackles of EU red tape and and the control of imported food stuffs.
Many of them feel that it has proved to be an unmitigated disaster, as the amount of red tape has doubles, funding hasn't materialised and food imports regulations have had limited benefits to domestic production. They think that closer ties with the EU (even if not outright rejoining the EU) is the only way forward.
In an area that hasn't had a Labour candidate garner 20% of the vote in living history, the Lib Dems could have a good run at gaining the seat if they can find a decent candidate.

Farm funding has reduced quite significantly so rural locations will be interesting especially in traditionally strong lib dem areas in the south west. Strange how no one will touch brexit as an issue, not even the Lib Dems. Surely they have nothing to lose and could double down as they continue to fail to make headway other than protest by elections and locals?

[Murph7355]

boyse7en said:

DeejRC said:

A pro EU stance is an electoral disaster policy. Society has zero interest in going back into that bunfight, positive sentiment for the EU or not. It’s a lunatic idea that will be creamed come GE time.

I disagree.
Without wanting this thread to descend into a pro/anti Brexit warzone, I live in a Tory-voting rural area in which many farmers and associated trades voted for Brexit, lured by promises of increased funding, release from the shackles of EU red tape and and the control of imported food stuffs.
Many of them feel that it has proved to be an unmitigated disaster, as the amount of red tape has doubles, funding hasn't materialised and food imports regulations have had limited benefits to domestic production. They think that closer ties with the EU (even if not outright rejoining the EU) is the only way forward.
In an area that hasn't had a Labour candidate garner 20% of the vote in living history, the Lib Dems could have a good run at gaining the seat if they can find a decent candidate.

Reversing Brexit, or even mild suggestions of doing so, are not the only answer there though.

A party could actually come up with ideas to do the things originally suggested. Put that part of the electorate and the UK first etc. Make positive steps forward rather than trying to hop into a time machine and go back 20yrs.

I think we all, irrespective of a single issue vote 7yrs ago, want a govt to actually do something meaningful to take the country forward. Not backwards.

This is the problem I have with all of them. They are either sniping across the floor, or whining about the past.

[Murph7355]

PS they were the big original proponents of PR and electoral reform. With us all sick to eyeballs of the current political class, this would be a vote winner IMO. If they could be trusted... Which they probably can't given their stance on democracy and hat eating.

[Snoggledog]

StevieBee said:

Tom8 said:

I suppose the question is what are the Lib Dems for?

It's a good question.

One of the mysteries over the past 10 years or so has been the inability of the LibDems to gain popularity when the opportunity to do so was presented to them on a plate.

My guess is that the electorate likes clear choice - left / right. LibDems seem to hover around the middle leaning a little to the left and sometimes a little to the right but neither in a manner that is convincing.

Winding the clock back many years, I recall a Spitting Image episode where Paddy Pantsdown was being caricatured.

We're neither left nor right; but somewhere in the middle. was what he said.

Sadly that sums up the Lib Dems. Just a bit in the middle.

[ATG]

Tom8 said:

Farm funding has reduced quite significantly so rural locations will be interesting especially in traditionally strong lib dem areas in the south west. Strange how no one will touch brexit as an issue, not even the Lib Dems. Surely they have nothing to lose and could double down as they continue to fail to make headway other than protest by elections and locals?

They don't need to. By keeping quiet on it they win both ways. We all know they're more pro-EU than either Labour or Conservatives who are both split on it, so for anyone keen to rejoin the EU that knowledge alone is a plus for the LibDems even if they aren't shouting the message from the roof tops. And they're avoiding actively alienating the soft-Tory-but-pro-Brexit voters that they're trying to attract.

Their plan is to target a rather modest number of seats and campaign in them exactly as they do in by-elections. They don't have the manpower to run that type of campaign across the whole country. If they can achieve swings even vaguely like the ones they have achieved in by-elections over the last few years, they'll significantly increase their number of MPs, and that then becomes a springboard for trying to get their message out to the country as a whole. At the moment they find it almost impossible to get any coverage in the media, so it is entirely understandable that people ask who they are and what they're for. Apart from ringing your doorbell or shoving a leaflet through your letter box, they've got no other communication path, unlike the Tories and Labour who are constantly reported on and dissected by the Press.

[DeejRC]

I also live in a Tory voting farming area, down in the south west and we are a registered farm. I think I might know a little of this prime LD punter to be targeted…

Anybody trying to recover Brexit at the next election would be hammered. All it would mean would be another 5yrs of destructive inaction- because that is how administration and bureaucracy works. That would be utterly disastrous in the reality of the short term. We are all still waiting for how the damn white papers on the funding are meant to work because nobody - inc the govt - are quite sure themselves. Sort practical administration out, then ppl might care about the ideology of it.

[FiF]

Speaking as someone who has in the past voted LibDem, albeit dim and distant past must be said, the country needs a 3rd party.

However that is not and never will be, nor should be the LibDems. Never ever.

Would vote Monster Raving Looney before them these days.

There is no one, other than a decent Independent should one stand that would get my X next time as things stand currently.

[Ivan stewart]

They are just a more fluffy left party that seems to
Attract public sector types, and the slightly dim but worthy … hand wingers perhaps.. labour with the spite and bile taken out ..

[ATG]

Murph7355 said:

PS they were the big original proponents of PR and electoral reform. With us all sick to eyeballs of the current political class, this would be a vote winner IMO. If they could be trusted... Which they probably can't given their stance on democracy and hat eating.

It needs at least one of the two bigger parties to be up for it and then a peculiar situation where that party is in government while still being disadvantaged by first-past-the-post. Perhaps a minority or very narrow majority Labour government where they've a huge lead in the seats they've won, and are only marginally behind where they've lost. I'd like to see us try some form of PR, but I'm not holding my breath. Who knows, maybe constitutional reform will really become of interest in its own right. I don't think it's likely, but it would be a good thing.

[Pan Pan Pan]

g4ry13 said:

Their modern peak was with Charles Kennedy. They've been on the decline since getting into bed with the Conservative party and discarding their policies and trying to overturn democratic votes.

Indeed. they proved in 2016 that they dont believe in people's democratic votes, if that democratic vote does not go the way `they' wanted it to.
It would be dangerous to let a political party which does not believe in democracy get into power.
For truth and honesty, perhaps the liberals should just stop using the word `democrats' in their party's title?