Discussion
The long line of people making their way past the injured porter looks to be a chilling example of what happens when everyone decides that someone else will do something… Arguably a rational response from the individuals involved “Someone else will be better placed than me to help…” etc, but each person who passes by makes it easier for the next in line to do the same.
I’m not certain why one particular group / climber is being singled out in the media. To me it looks like a collective failure from everyone on the mountain. As a [former] climber, I find this truly horrifying. Your summit dreams can never be worth someone else’s life.
The reporting isn’t that clear, so perhaps I have misunderstood?
Edit: Here’s an eyewitness account from https://abenteuer-berg.de/en/willi-steindl-on-the-...
I’m not certain why one particular group / climber is being singled out in the media. To me it looks like a collective failure from everyone on the mountain. As a [former] climber, I find this truly horrifying. Your summit dreams can never be worth someone else’s life.
The reporting isn’t that clear, so perhaps I have misunderstood?
Edit: Here’s an eyewitness account from https://abenteuer-berg.de/en/willi-steindl-on-the-...
Edited by WindyCommon on Saturday 12th August 00:00
On Ben Nevis or Scafell Pike then yes I can see that, but isn't there an understanding with mountain climbers that if you're on the big mountains and something awful happens at height, especially in zones where oxygen is generally needed, then you may well be on your own? Everest is littered with bodies because it's so difficult to bring them down, so presumably it's very difficult to bring down an injured person and could even put the helpers at risk too. Another climber claimed that if it had happened in the Alps the person would have been helped without question, but the alps are 4000+m, this happened at 8200m, a totally different environment.
I don't know the details or what the group did or didn't try to do (I doubt they would say they tried for many hours to help him if all they did was step over him on the way up) but this isn't like leaving someone on the ground when they've just been hit by a car on Oxford Street.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/11/norw...
I don't know the details or what the group did or didn't try to do (I doubt they would say they tried for many hours to help him if all they did was step over him on the way up) but this isn't like leaving someone on the ground when they've just been hit by a car on Oxford Street.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/11/norw...
InformationSuperHighway said:
Agreed, I always figured it was a fairly well documented mindset that you don’t put yourself at risk to save someone else.
I’m not sure I could put myself in that mindset, but then I don’t put myself in those situations if I can help it.
I know nothing about mountaineering and would accept that if there was one person or a small group but it was a big team and to say they couldn't do anything or turn back is kind of hard to believe I’m not sure I could put myself in that mindset, but then I don’t put myself in those situations if I can help it.
A n edit: He was brought down from the mountain so it was possible.
Edited by Oliver Hardy on Saturday 12th August 01:30
I read that they did not recover him yet?
I also read this was his first climb at this sort of altitude and he did not have oxygen. He was part of the team laying the ropes.
Looking at the photos it does not look like a fall to me as there is no where to fall from. It looks like he had a medical issue.
Its very sad and yes people could have attempted a rescue but he was in literally the worst place possible, its about 2 feet wide at that point with a straight drop off for a few thousand meters. It would have taken several people to risk their own lives. And I am not talking a small risk, the risk is seriously high.
This is why people who climb at these altitudes accept the risks. Because there is in reality little chance of rescue if you break a bone or have a seizure you are done.
People don't understand just how hostile K2 is. Until 2020 only about 400 people had made it to the top. And about 100 died trying. Think about that...
I also read this was his first climb at this sort of altitude and he did not have oxygen. He was part of the team laying the ropes.
Looking at the photos it does not look like a fall to me as there is no where to fall from. It looks like he had a medical issue.
Its very sad and yes people could have attempted a rescue but he was in literally the worst place possible, its about 2 feet wide at that point with a straight drop off for a few thousand meters. It would have taken several people to risk their own lives. And I am not talking a small risk, the risk is seriously high.
This is why people who climb at these altitudes accept the risks. Because there is in reality little chance of rescue if you break a bone or have a seizure you are done.
People don't understand just how hostile K2 is. Until 2020 only about 400 people had made it to the top. And about 100 died trying. Think about that...
I love how the media is laying it on thick.
OP how would you have saved him? You can't lower or carrying him down. Have you seen where they are?
You are on the limits of your own energy, strength and mental endurance. At that point its not simply 'I've come this far someone else can do it'.
RIP.
OP how would you have saved him? You can't lower or carrying him down. Have you seen where they are?
You are on the limits of your own energy, strength and mental endurance. At that point its not simply 'I've come this far someone else can do it'.
RIP.
Hugo Stiglitz said:
I love how the media is laying it on thick.
OP how would you have saved him? You can't lower or carrying him down. Have you seen where they are?
You are on the limits of your own energy, strength and mental endurance. At that point its not simply 'I've come this far someone else can do it'.
RIP.
It appears that many considered whether their remaining energy, strength and mental endurance should be employed to help the injured man, or to go for the summit. They chose to go for the summit.OP how would you have saved him? You can't lower or carrying him down. Have you seen where they are?
You are on the limits of your own energy, strength and mental endurance. At that point its not simply 'I've come this far someone else can do it'.
RIP.
An Austrian climber who was there said:
Willi Steindl said:
Of course, a rescue is possible there – just like on the summit ridge of Mount Everest. You just have to want it and have the manpower and strength to pull someone down from there. It takes three, four or five people. And everyone following behind has to turn around and clear the way. Then you could at least get an injured person down to Camp 4 (at 7,600 meters) and give him bottled oxygen and warm him up in a tent there. No idea if he (Muhammad Hassan) would have survived, but no rescue operation was even attempted.
By way of background on the climber who is - perhaps unfairly - the focus of the media attention:https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/expedition+alpin...
HannahV said:
She's a very strong and fit ex cross country skier who wanted to make a speed record on the 14 8000ers by using standard routes with fixed ropes, heavy sherpa support, supplementary O2, and lots of helicopter assistance to go from one base camp to the next or sometimes flying all the way back to Kathmandu inbetween for recovery. I don't think the project was ever meant to demonstrate a high level of alpinism or mountaineering skill, but simply to make a new speed record by whatever means it would take.
The difficult question is whether the resources available were directed toward this person’s highly publicised record attempt at the expense of the poor local who died.Edited by WindyCommon on Saturday 12th August 06:33
glazbagun said:
Claims being made don't seem to tie in with the video which shows people with him.
If I'm dying in/near the death zone of K2 with a couple of people attending to me (whilst slowly dying themselves), I don't know what benefit I'd gain from ten others hoarding around.
+1 If you help there's a good chance the whole group dies. And if you cause too much of a traffic jam people above start dying.If I'm dying in/near the death zone of K2 with a couple of people attending to me (whilst slowly dying themselves), I don't know what benefit I'd gain from ten others hoarding around.
WindyCommon said:
Hugo Stiglitz said:
I love how the media is laying it on thick.
OP how would you have saved him? You can't lower or carrying him down. Have you seen where they are?
You are on the limits of your own energy, strength and mental endurance. At that point its not simply 'I've come this far someone else can do it'.
RIP.
It appears that many considered whether their remaining energy, strength and mental endurance should be employed to help the injured man, or to go for the summit. They chose to go for the summit.OP how would you have saved him? You can't lower or carrying him down. Have you seen where they are?
You are on the limits of your own energy, strength and mental endurance. At that point its not simply 'I've come this far someone else can do it'.
RIP.
An Austrian climber who was there said:
Willi Steindl said:
Of course, a rescue is possible there – just like on the summit ridge of Mount Everest. You just have to want it and have the manpower and strength to pull someone down from there. It takes three, four or five people. And everyone following behind has to turn around and clear the way. Then you could at least get an injured person down to Camp 4 (at 7,600 meters) and give him bottled oxygen and warm him up in a tent there. No idea if he (Muhammad Hassan) would have survived, but no rescue operation was even attempted.
By way of background on the climber who is - perhaps unfairly - the focus of the media attention:https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/expedition+alpin...
HannahV said:
She's a very strong and fit ex cross country skier who wanted to make a speed record on the 14 8000ers by using standard routes with fixed ropes, heavy sherpa support, supplementary O2, and lots of helicopter assistance to go from one base camp to the next or sometimes flying all the way back to Kathmandu inbetween for recovery. I don't think the project was ever meant to demonstrate a high level of alpinism or mountaineering skill, but simply to make a new speed record by whatever means it would take.
The difficult question is whether the resources available were directed toward this person’s highly publicised record attempt at the expense of the poor local who died.Edited by WindyCommon on Saturday 12th August 06:33
A quote from the climber herself:
Kristin Harila said:
Considering the amount of people that stayed behind and that had turned around, I believed Hassan would be getting all the help he could, and that he would be able to get down.
We did not fully understand the gravity of everything that happened until later.
We did not fully understand the gravity of everything that happened until later.
https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2000/feb/1...
^^ Report from 2000 of encountering an injured climber on Everest.
I've only known one guy who've been over 6000M and even at that height he remembers becoming distinctly uncharitable, weak and pissed off.
^^ Report from 2000 of encountering an injured climber on Everest.
I've only known one guy who've been over 6000M and even at that height he remembers becoming distinctly uncharitable, weak and pissed off.
Considering the view down/around at that point for 4-5 to attempt to lower one immobile and probably already deceased climber would put all at risk- those behind at risk too.
This isn't a job for your Mountain rescue team. This is a few thousand feet above the threshold.
How do the reporters know that someone had already checked his vitals?
Quoting a climber who says it's possible but X, X and X need to happen. Everyone is on the threshold of their mental and physical endurance. To give x% etc.
What needs addressing is why doesn't a porter get given oxygen for their climb?
This isn't a job for your Mountain rescue team. This is a few thousand feet above the threshold.
How do the reporters know that someone had already checked his vitals?
Quoting a climber who says it's possible but X, X and X need to happen. Everyone is on the threshold of their mental and physical endurance. To give x% etc.
What needs addressing is why doesn't a porter get given oxygen for their climb?
ks from people who have never been higher than Box HillAbove 8000m on K2 you're on your own.
You go up there accepting if anything goes wrong then you're on your own.
I guess this has gained traction because it's a porter and not a client.
Look where they are. Sit there long enough and your oxygen runs out, you get cold and suddenly realise you can't even move your own body.
You go up there accepting if anything goes wrong then you're on your own.
I guess this has gained traction because it's a porter and not a client.
Look where they are. Sit there long enough and your oxygen runs out, you get cold and suddenly realise you can't even move your own body.
ScotHill said:
gotoPzero said:
I read that they did not recover him yet?
Only things I i read were that he was buried in situ, from local sources, don’t know how reliable that is though.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff