60 Years Ago Today
Discussion
The Great Train Robbery. The haul was worth 61 million quid at today's money.
The robbery was audacious and meticulously planned and executed. The gang did not carry any firearms but the train driver, Jack Mills was coshed and injured by Buster Edwards. Although he died 7 years later from leukemia it was said that he never fully recovered from getting coshed on the head.
The backlash was enormous. The Conservative government of the day was reeling from scandals (sounds familiar..). The Profumo affair had happened just months before and the government would fall soon afterwards. The robbery was seen as an attack on the establishment, they did after all steal the Queen's mail.
The government were determined to make an example of the robbers. They wanted them caught quickly and punished to the greatest extent allowed. Top cop Tommy Butler was tasked with leading the inquiry and when the bulk of the team were caught the sentences handed down were unprecedented and caused an outcry. 30 years for robbery was disproportionate, as evinced by lesser sentences given to those that escaped immediate capture and were tried later. Indeed Bruce Reynolds, the ringleader, was given 25 years when he was finally caught in 1968.
All the known robbers are dead now apart from Bob Welch who is 93. One of them, Roy James, was a very talented racing river. Several members of the gang were never identified and the bulk of the money was never recovered. For most of the gang the robbery bought misery and imprisonment and, in some cases, early death. Ironically the best known of them is probably Ronnie Biggs whose role in the robbery was tiny but who became infamous for escaping from Wandsworth and, after fleeing to Australia, ended up living in Brazil and posing form the tourists.
Bruce Reynolds ended up living of the charity of other villains although he did write a candid and well received autobiography (The autobiography of a thief). His son Nick is a member of the band Alabama 3 whose song was used as the title music for, ironically, The Sopranos.
The robbery was audacious and meticulously planned and executed. The gang did not carry any firearms but the train driver, Jack Mills was coshed and injured by Buster Edwards. Although he died 7 years later from leukemia it was said that he never fully recovered from getting coshed on the head.
The backlash was enormous. The Conservative government of the day was reeling from scandals (sounds familiar..). The Profumo affair had happened just months before and the government would fall soon afterwards. The robbery was seen as an attack on the establishment, they did after all steal the Queen's mail.
The government were determined to make an example of the robbers. They wanted them caught quickly and punished to the greatest extent allowed. Top cop Tommy Butler was tasked with leading the inquiry and when the bulk of the team were caught the sentences handed down were unprecedented and caused an outcry. 30 years for robbery was disproportionate, as evinced by lesser sentences given to those that escaped immediate capture and were tried later. Indeed Bruce Reynolds, the ringleader, was given 25 years when he was finally caught in 1968.
All the known robbers are dead now apart from Bob Welch who is 93. One of them, Roy James, was a very talented racing river. Several members of the gang were never identified and the bulk of the money was never recovered. For most of the gang the robbery bought misery and imprisonment and, in some cases, early death. Ironically the best known of them is probably Ronnie Biggs whose role in the robbery was tiny but who became infamous for escaping from Wandsworth and, after fleeing to Australia, ended up living in Brazil and posing form the tourists.
Bruce Reynolds ended up living of the charity of other villains although he did write a candid and well received autobiography (The autobiography of a thief). His son Nick is a member of the band Alabama 3 whose song was used as the title music for, ironically, The Sopranos.
Tango13 said:
I think part of the reason for the long sentences wasn't just the huge sums of money but also the fact that they stole from the Royal Mail.
About 35 years back a local postie got sent down for 3 years for dumping a bag of mail instead of delivering it!
Absolutely. The government saw it as an attack on the establishment. The government under Harold Macmillan had become a laughing stock after Profumo and they were trying to re assert their authority.About 35 years back a local postie got sent down for 3 years for dumping a bag of mail instead of delivering it!
unrepentant said:
Tango13 said:
I think part of the reason for the long sentences wasn't just the huge sums of money but also the fact that they stole from the Royal Mail.
About 35 years back a local postie got sent down for 3 years for dumping a bag of mail instead of delivering it!
Absolutely. The government saw it as an attack on the establishment. The government under Harold Macmillan had become a laughing stock after Profumo and they were trying to re assert their authority.About 35 years back a local postie got sent down for 3 years for dumping a bag of mail instead of delivering it!
For obvious reasons, I just have to post here!
Yes, I think the sentences were due to it being viewed as an attack on the country rather than just a robbery.
Too easy to glorify the people involved, as the robbery and their (temporary) escape makes a good story.
Most of the participants were career criminals, many had done time before, and indeed afterwards.
I have been interested in the background for years, Bruce Reynolds' autobiography is a good read.
It does really show that crime doesn't pay.
Yes, I think the sentences were due to it being viewed as an attack on the country rather than just a robbery.
Too easy to glorify the people involved, as the robbery and their (temporary) escape makes a good story.
Most of the participants were career criminals, many had done time before, and indeed afterwards.
I have been interested in the background for years, Bruce Reynolds' autobiography is a good read.
It does really show that crime doesn't pay.
Edited by Roy James II on Tuesday 8th August 18:06
60 years later and one bright teenager in their bedroom on a PC could achieve the same, and probably transfer it to a hidden bank account within the hour.
No multiple participants, no visiting the place where the money is held, no masks, no gloves, no guns, no cosh, no vans, no spades, no mk2 Jaguar....
No multiple participants, no visiting the place where the money is held, no masks, no gloves, no guns, no cosh, no vans, no spades, no mk2 Jaguar....
cookie1600 said:
60 years later and one bright teenager in their bedroom on a PC could achieve the same, and probably transfer it to a hidden bank account within the hour.
No multiple participants, no visiting the place where the money is held, no masks, no gloves, no guns, no cosh, no vans, no spades, no mk2 Jaguar....
Aaah, the Mk2 Jag. Proper get away wheels son. No multiple participants, no visiting the place where the money is held, no masks, no gloves, no guns, no cosh, no vans, no spades, no mk2 Jaguar....
I’ve just finished reading Nick Russell-Pavier and Stewart Richards’ book on the robbery and thoroughly recommend it, it blows away several hackneyed old myths and goes into great detail about what happened before, during and after the attack on the mail train. It gives an accurate timeline of events and examines the mistakes made by the gang, the railway authorities, the post office and the police. The job was well planned and (mostly) well executed, but things began to fall apart within hours of the gang’s return to their hide out, 28 miles away. After the loco and front two coaches were impounded at Cheddington station, the loco was sent back to Crewe by mistake and had to be returned two days later, contaminating and forensic evidence left behind by the gang.
One of the myths is that Jack Mills was only cashed once, but the doctor who examined him a few hours after the robbery found five separate wounds on his head, rather deep ones too. Mills never drove on the mainline again and had the shakes until he died seven years later. His Secondman David Whitby died tragically young at just 34. The GPO workers in the high value package coach were violently assaulted too, something which is often overlooked.
An odd coincidence which came up in the investigation was that one of the policemen working on the case was in the army with one of the robbers.
One of the first train crew on the scene is a mate of mate of mine, and despite doing his best to assist with raising the alarm received a severe b
king from BR management for moving the front portion of the train.
One of the myths is that Jack Mills was only cashed once, but the doctor who examined him a few hours after the robbery found five separate wounds on his head, rather deep ones too. Mills never drove on the mainline again and had the shakes until he died seven years later. His Secondman David Whitby died tragically young at just 34. The GPO workers in the high value package coach were violently assaulted too, something which is often overlooked.
An odd coincidence which came up in the investigation was that one of the policemen working on the case was in the army with one of the robbers.
One of the first train crew on the scene is a mate of mate of mine, and despite doing his best to assist with raising the alarm received a severe b
king from BR management for moving the front portion of the train.Roy James II said:
For obvious reasons, I just have to post here!
Yes, I think the sentences were due to it being viewed as an attack on the country rather than just a robbery.
Too easy to glorify the people involved, as the robbery and their (temporary) escape makes a good story.
Most of the participants were career criminals, many had done time before, and indeed afterwards.
I have been interested in the background for years, Bruce Reynolds' autobiography is a good read.
It does really show that crime doesn't pay.
I agree. I think the public were enthralled at the time because of the scope and size of the robbery and the sheer audacity of it. I think the fact that the sentences that were handed down were so ridiculous and disproportionate to the crime made many felt that an injustice had been done.Yes, I think the sentences were due to it being viewed as an attack on the country rather than just a robbery.
Too easy to glorify the people involved, as the robbery and their (temporary) escape makes a good story.
Most of the participants were career criminals, many had done time before, and indeed afterwards.
I have been interested in the background for years, Bruce Reynolds' autobiography is a good read.
It does really show that crime doesn't pay.
I've read Autobiography of a Thief several times and really enjoyed it. He was very frank about the fact that crime destroyed his life. He was a clever man and presumably had he turned his hand to something legal he could have been successful. He also loved his motors!
I used to take my kids to Brill Hill to fly kites when they were young and used to bore them to tears with tales of Leatherslade Farm (which was just up the road) and the robbery.
Your namesake (relation?) was apparently a very talented driver, 16 wins in 1963 alone, and who knows what he might have achieved were it not for his prediliction for a life of crime?
P5BNij said:
I’ve just finished reading Nick Russell-Pavier and Stewart Richards’ book on the robbery and thoroughly recommend it,
Just added that to my Kindle, thanks.The great author Piers Paul Read wrote a terrific book about it in 1985, in conjunction with the gang, but Reynolds and co sold him a total yarn about Otto Skorzeny being involved! They did it to get a big advance out of him and he bought it hook, line and sinker! I remember reading it when it came out and marvelling at the fact this German officer, the man who rescued Mussolini in the Grand Sasso raid and set up ODESSA, had financed the heist. All complete rubbish but sold so convincingly that Read fell for it.
unrepentant said:
Just added that to my Kindle, thanks.
The great author Piers Paul Read wrote a terrific book about it in 1985, in conjunction with the gang, but Reynolds and co sold him a total yarn about Otto Skorzeny being involved! They did it to get a big advance out of him and he bought it hook, line and sinker! I remember reading it when it came out and marvelling at the fact this German officer, the man who rescued Mussolini in the Grand Sasso raid and set up ODESSA, had financed the heist. All complete rubbish but sold so convincingly that Read fell for it.
That is the book I remember reading in the early 90s as a nearly 10 year old. It was a blue hardback cover with photos of the event in the middle.The great author Piers Paul Read wrote a terrific book about it in 1985, in conjunction with the gang, but Reynolds and co sold him a total yarn about Otto Skorzeny being involved! They did it to get a big advance out of him and he bought it hook, line and sinker! I remember reading it when it came out and marvelling at the fact this German officer, the man who rescued Mussolini in the Grand Sasso raid and set up ODESSA, had financed the heist. All complete rubbish but sold so convincingly that Read fell for it.
I remember the author's name.
unrepentant said:
P5BNij said:
I’ve just finished reading Nick Russell-Pavier and Stewart Richards’ book on the robbery and thoroughly recommend it,
Just added that to my Kindle, thanks.The great author Piers Paul Read wrote a terrific book about it in 1985, in conjunction with the gang, but Reynolds and co sold him a total yarn about Otto Skorzeny being involved! They did it to get a big advance out of him and he bought it hook, line and sinker! I remember reading it when it came out and marvelling at the fact this German officer, the man who rescued Mussolini in the Grand Sasso raid and set up ODESSA, had financed the heist. All complete rubbish but sold so convincingly that Read fell for it.
Funny enough I just saw the film Robbery the other day. Seems very close to some of the things that happened.
UK being the UK everything is a secret so as not to encourage copycats so it seems to have been obscured from mainstream viewing.
Unlike the hatton garden fetish that results in a film every 30 minutes.
My problem with the 60s film robbery is they do the job and then all hide out together till the heat is off.
Surely they had all put themselves up for being in the same conspiracy/joint enterprise,when no bobby can find them.
Dont think thats accurate to the actual event is it? If so it seems stupid.
UK being the UK everything is a secret so as not to encourage copycats so it seems to have been obscured from mainstream viewing.
Unlike the hatton garden fetish that results in a film every 30 minutes.
My problem with the 60s film robbery is they do the job and then all hide out together till the heat is off.
Surely they had all put themselves up for being in the same conspiracy/joint enterprise,when no bobby can find them.
Dont think thats accurate to the actual event is it? If so it seems stupid.
Fundoreen said:
Funny enough I just saw the film Robbery the other day. Seems very close to some of the things that happened.
UK being the UK everything is a secret so as not to encourage copycats so it seems to have been obscured from mainstream viewing.
Unlike the hatton garden fetish that results in a film every 30 minutes.
My problem with the 60s film robbery is they do the job and then all hide out together till the heat is off.
Surely they had all put themselves up for being in the same conspiracy/joint enterprise,when no bobby can find them.
Dont think thats accurate to the actual event is it? If so it seems stupid.
Great movie.UK being the UK everything is a secret so as not to encourage copycats so it seems to have been obscured from mainstream viewing.
Unlike the hatton garden fetish that results in a film every 30 minutes.
My problem with the 60s film robbery is they do the job and then all hide out together till the heat is off.
Surely they had all put themselves up for being in the same conspiracy/joint enterprise,when no bobby can find them.
Dont think thats accurate to the actual event is it? If so it seems stupid.
That's what they did. They bought a remote farmhouse in Brill and hid out there. The idea was that the police would have road blocks up and they would all be picked up if they made a run for it. Better to lie low until the heat was off. Unfortunately they told the mail workers not to move for 1/2 hour and Tommy Butler worked out that they were holed up within a 1/2 hour drive and started searching. The robbers then bolted back to London but they didn't clean the farm as planned as they were in a hurry and so left lots of clues.
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