UK fruit picking farms like prison
Discussion
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65987378
migrant worker said:
..workers were addressed by numbers, rather than names, as if they were in prison, forced to work 18 hour days and live in overcrowded caravans...
You need to be aware that you are coming into a country where you don't have as many rights as a worker as you do in South Africa. So that can be challenging
I am sure there will be no shortage of takers for doing this kind of work as part of the worker visa scheme, as i'm sure it pays better than what they get back home. A part of me does wonder how much of this story is exaggerated - surely in 2023 we can't have people working (officially) in these kinds of conditions.You need to be aware that you are coming into a country where you don't have as many rights as a worker as you do in South Africa. So that can be challenging
Entirely facilitated by the restrictions of the Government's Seasonal Worker visa scheme: https://www.gov.uk/seasonal-worker-visa
I've never understood why fruit farms (or any other business) have an inalienable right to cheap labour, and hence rules are bent in their favour.
I've never understood why fruit farms (or any other business) have an inalienable right to cheap labour, and hence rules are bent in their favour.
Strange, isn't it, that workers come over from Eastern Europe to do these back-breaking, low-paid jobs while asylum seekers and illegal migrants are put up in hotels and paid a modest daily allowance while doing nothing.
Around 200,000 new homes are built each year in UK but that compares with net immigration running at 600,000 people.
UK has a fine system of university education and educates many foreign students from around the world. Medical courses are significantly over-subscribed. Yet there aren't enough medics being trained even to run the existing NHS and doctors/nurses are brought in from other countries. Where are those other countries training them and how are they replacing them?
None of this stuff adds up and nobody in UK government seems capable of joining the dots to create a coherent plan.
Around 200,000 new homes are built each year in UK but that compares with net immigration running at 600,000 people.
UK has a fine system of university education and educates many foreign students from around the world. Medical courses are significantly over-subscribed. Yet there aren't enough medics being trained even to run the existing NHS and doctors/nurses are brought in from other countries. Where are those other countries training them and how are they replacing them?
None of this stuff adds up and nobody in UK government seems capable of joining the dots to create a coherent plan.
Panamax said:
Strange, isn't it, that workers come over from Eastern Europe to do these back-breaking, low-paid jobs while asylum seekers and illegal migrants are put up in hotels and paid a modest daily allowance while doing nothing.
Around 200,000 new homes are built each year in UK but that compares with net immigration running at 600,000 people.
UK has a fine system of university education and educates many foreign students from around the world. Medical courses are significantly over-subscribed. Yet there aren't enough medics being trained even to run the existing NHS and doctors/nurses are brought in from other countries. Where are those other countries training them and how are they replacing them?
None of this stuff adds up and nobody in UK government seems capable of joining the dots to create a coherent plan.
It's relatively cheaper to get a medical qualification in Eastern Europe (our GP's son went to Polan when he didn't get into UK medical school). the other cpountries aren't "replacing" their trained medics because they can't afford to employ them all in the first place. 3rd world countries have a much higher ration of patients to doctors.Around 200,000 new homes are built each year in UK but that compares with net immigration running at 600,000 people.
UK has a fine system of university education and educates many foreign students from around the world. Medical courses are significantly over-subscribed. Yet there aren't enough medics being trained even to run the existing NHS and doctors/nurses are brought in from other countries. Where are those other countries training them and how are they replacing them?
None of this stuff adds up and nobody in UK government seems capable of joining the dots to create a coherent plan.
Panamax said:
Strange, isn't it, that workers come over from Eastern Europe to do these back-breaking, low-paid jobs while asylum seekers and illegal migrants are put up in hotels and paid a modest daily allowance while doing nothing.
Around 200,000 new homes are built each year in UK but that compares with net immigration running at 600,000 people.
UK has a fine system of university education and educates many foreign students from around the world. Medical courses are significantly over-subscribed. Yet there aren't enough medics being trained even to run the existing NHS and doctors/nurses are brought in from other countries. Where are those other countries training them and how are they replacing them?
None of this stuff adds up and nobody in UK government seems capable of joining the dots to create a coherent plan.
54% of people now live in households that claim more in benefits than they contribute in taxes. As you say, none of this adds up. The whole system will go pop soon.Around 200,000 new homes are built each year in UK but that compares with net immigration running at 600,000 people.
UK has a fine system of university education and educates many foreign students from around the world. Medical courses are significantly over-subscribed. Yet there aren't enough medics being trained even to run the existing NHS and doctors/nurses are brought in from other countries. Where are those other countries training them and how are they replacing them?
None of this stuff adds up and nobody in UK government seems capable of joining the dots to create a coherent plan.
Olivera said:
Entirely facilitated by the restrictions of the Government's Seasonal Worker visa scheme: https://www.gov.uk/seasonal-worker-visa
I've never understood why fruit farms (or any other business) have an inalienable right to cheap labour, and hence rules are bent in their favour.
It's been the model for quite a while to ensure that we can get the food to the supermarkets/markets at a price which the consumer is willing to pay without a civil war.I've never understood why fruit farms (or any other business) have an inalienable right to cheap labour, and hence rules are bent in their favour.
If we treated the pickers with the same respect/dignity/human rights as the person at the supermarket till then our fruit and veg would treble in price.
Supermarkets are now offering above minimum wage to their staff to ensure they can get the staff and that the customer sees an image of a good supermarket. Pickers are hidden from the customer so don't need to worry about that image.
Hidden behind that is the challenges faced by farmers: without Eastern European pickers the crop would be destroyed because only they can pick fast enough while keeping the crop intact in the basket and have the resilience to endure a full season.
Dairy farmers face a situation that they make a loss to be able to keep the cashflow coming in because they need the demand from the supermarkets to survive.
Countdown said:
It's relatively cheaper to get a medical qualification in Eastern Europe (our GP's son went to Polan when he didn't get into UK medical school). the other countries aren't "replacing" their trained medics because they can't afford to employ them all in the first place.
Which demonstrates the point I was making - if poorer countries can train "too many" doctors why can't UK train "enough" doctors? It's just nonsense.I have considerable admiration for fruit pickers who are doing a day's work, living in shabby conditions and sending cash home to their families while Brits are sitting on their backsides.
RowntreesCabana said:
Panamax said:
Strange, isn't it, that workers come over from Eastern Europe to do these back-breaking, low-paid jobs while asylum seekers and illegal migrants are put up in hotels and paid a modest daily allowance while doing nothing.
Around 200,000 new homes are built each year in UK but that compares with net immigration running at 600,000 people.
UK has a fine system of university education and educates many foreign students from around the world. Medical courses are significantly over-subscribed. Yet there aren't enough medics being trained even to run the existing NHS and doctors/nurses are brought in from other countries. Where are those other countries training them and how are they replacing them?
None of this stuff adds up and nobody in UK government seems capable of joining the dots to create a coherent plan.
54% of people now live in households that claim more in benefits than they contribute in taxes. As you say, none of this adds up. The whole system will go pop soon.Around 200,000 new homes are built each year in UK but that compares with net immigration running at 600,000 people.
UK has a fine system of university education and educates many foreign students from around the world. Medical courses are significantly over-subscribed. Yet there aren't enough medics being trained even to run the existing NHS and doctors/nurses are brought in from other countries. Where are those other countries training them and how are they replacing them?
None of this stuff adds up and nobody in UK government seems capable of joining the dots to create a coherent plan.
t on thatgreygoose said:
Why would you think people cannot live/work in these conditions in 2023? There are frequent modern slavery cases reported in the news and fruit picking has always been a low paid area.
Yes, i've read about those, but what I was referring to are people coming over in an official capacity with a visa to work here - not illegal migrants that need to stay under the radar. I find it strange that they could be treated so bad without repercussions.Panamax said:
I have considerable admiration for fruit pickers who are doing a day's work, living in shabby conditions and sending cash home to their families while Brits are sitting on their backsides.
Agree with that, but I doubt any UK family would work picking fruit as long as we have the social safety net, and that isn't going away anytime soon. We are about to vote in a labour government, which means there will be at least one more generation of people on benefits and not working.I seem to recall during the Covid times farmers said they needed experienced foreigners to do the work, specifically saying British labourers were unsuitable.
Like picking fruit is an extraordinarily difficult skill, up there with surgery.
I was pretty sure it's coz they're being charged to live in knackered old static caravans with twenty of their peers while they do the work.
Thanks BBC
Like picking fruit is an extraordinarily difficult skill, up there with surgery.
I was pretty sure it's coz they're being charged to live in knackered old static caravans with twenty of their peers while they do the work.
Thanks BBC
Edited by Jim the Sunderer on Thursday 22 June 18:35
s1962a said:
Agree with that, but I doubt any UK family would work picking fruit as long as we have the social safety net, and that isn't going away anytime soon. We are about to vote in a labour government, which means there will be at least one more generation of people on benefits and not working.
Good point. Over a decade of conservative government has slashed that. <\sarcasm>Jim the Sunderer said:
I seem to recall during the Covid times farmers said they needed experienced foreigners to do the work, specifically saying British labourers were unsuitable.
Like picking fruit is an extraordinarily difficult skill, up there with surgery.
I was pretty sure it's coz they're being charged to live in knackered old static caravans with twenty of their peers while they do the work.
Thanks BBC
More or less true. BBC Radio4 had an article on this a couple of years ago. They questioned the farmers and they said the UK workers come back with a basket of broken fruit which had to be thrown away (not supermarket acceptable quality) where as the foreign picker is able to pick at speed and not waste all the fruit.Like picking fruit is an extraordinarily difficult skill, up there with surgery.
I was pretty sure it's coz they're being charged to live in knackered old static caravans with twenty of their peers while they do the work.
Thanks BBC
Edited by Jim the Sunderer on Thursday 22 June 18:35
You get paid for each basket of good fruit (i.e. not damaged).
Foreign worker was able to make over £100 per day due to their efficiency. UK worker struggled to make half that.
Foreign worker willing to live in squalid conditions on site provided for free by farmer. UK worker not willing to live in those conditions so will have to commute and lose time compared to foreign worker.
Foreign worker able to come back day after day for the whole season. Most UK workers could not last up to two weeks.
They then interviewed a fit young uni student who managed a whole season before. He said it was too much hard physical work and he was completely blistered. He could not and would not do another season ever again.
ETA: farmer also mentioned that time is of the essence so need fast pickers. Need to wait as late as possible in the season for the ripeness but then pick like crazy before rainy season starts damaging the fruit.
Edited by leef44 on Thursday 22 June 19:50
leef44 said:
More or less true. BBC Radio4 had an article on this a couple of years ago. They questioned the farmers and they said the UK workers come back with a basket of broken fruit which had to be thrown away (not supermarket acceptable quality) where as the foreign picker is able to pick at speed and not waste all the fruit.
You get paid for each basket of good fruit (i.e. not damaged).
Foreign worker was able to make over £100 per day due to their efficiency. UK worker struggled to make half that.
Foreign worker willing to live in squalid conditions on site provided for free by farmer. UK worker not willing to live in those conditions so will have to commute and lose time compared to foreign worker.
Foreign worker able to come back day after day for the whole season. Most UK workers could not last up to two weeks.
They then interviewed a fit young uni student who managed a whole season before. He said it was too much hard physical work and he was completely blistered. He could not and would not do another season ever again.
ETA: farmer also mentioned that time is of the essence so need fast pickers. Need to wait as late as possible in the season for the ripeness but then pick like crazy before rainy season starts damaging the fruit.
The migrant workers aren't naturally born and skilled at this, they usually have several seasons under their belt. And yes, being motivated to make in 3 months what would be an annual wage back home is good enough reason to stick around and get better.You get paid for each basket of good fruit (i.e. not damaged).
Foreign worker was able to make over £100 per day due to their efficiency. UK worker struggled to make half that.
Foreign worker willing to live in squalid conditions on site provided for free by farmer. UK worker not willing to live in those conditions so will have to commute and lose time compared to foreign worker.
Foreign worker able to come back day after day for the whole season. Most UK workers could not last up to two weeks.
They then interviewed a fit young uni student who managed a whole season before. He said it was too much hard physical work and he was completely blistered. He could not and would not do another season ever again.
ETA: farmer also mentioned that time is of the essence so need fast pickers. Need to wait as late as possible in the season for the ripeness but then pick like crazy before rainy season starts damaging the fruit.
Edited by leef44 on Thursday 22 June 19:50
Why wouldn't UK workers do something else for minimum wage? Let's not forget, students Under 23 don't get paid the Living Wage, so they could be on even less than the migrant workers. Why wouldn't you rather work in a call centre, fast food restaurant, or gig economy?
Evanivitch said:
The migrant workers aren't naturally born and skilled at this, they usually have several seasons under their belt. And yes, being motivated to make in 3 months what would be an annual wage back home is good enough reason to stick around and get better.
Why wouldn't UK workers do something else for minimum wage? Let's not forget, students Under 23 don't get paid the Living Wage, so they could be on even less than the migrant workers. Why wouldn't you rather work in a call centre, fast food restaurant, or gig economy?
Which goes back to the original point. There is some skill in and with experience they would get better.Why wouldn't UK workers do something else for minimum wage? Let's not forget, students Under 23 don't get paid the Living Wage, so they could be on even less than the migrant workers. Why wouldn't you rather work in a call centre, fast food restaurant, or gig economy?
And to make this competitive for UK workers then it would have to pay more than call centre, fast food or supermarket since it is harder work in harsher conditions. Food prices in supermarkets would probably need to treble to pay for this.
We are already complaining about 20-40% inflation on supermarket food prices. If we now push that up by another 200% then I reckon there will be civil unrest on the streets.
leef44 said:
Which goes back to the original point. There is some skill in and with experience they would get better.
And to make this competitive for UK workers then it would have to pay more than call centre, fast food or supermarket since it is harder work in harsher conditions. Food prices in supermarkets would probably need to treble to pay for this.
We are already complaining about 20-40% inflation on supermarket food prices. If we now push that up by another 200% then I reckon there will be civil unrest on the streets.
Just needs automation. Frickin' Lasers and AI will solve it.And to make this competitive for UK workers then it would have to pay more than call centre, fast food or supermarket since it is harder work in harsher conditions. Food prices in supermarkets would probably need to treble to pay for this.
We are already complaining about 20-40% inflation on supermarket food prices. If we now push that up by another 200% then I reckon there will be civil unrest on the streets.
Panamax said:
Countdown said:
It's relatively cheaper to get a medical qualification in Eastern Europe (our GP's son went to Polan when he didn't get into UK medical school). the other countries aren't "replacing" their trained medics because they can't afford to employ them all in the first place.
Which demonstrates the point I was making - if poorer countries can train "too many" doctors why can't UK train "enough" doctors? It's just nonsense.s1962a said:
Panamax said:
I have considerable admiration for fruit pickers who are doing a day's work, living in shabby conditions and sending cash home to their families while Brits are sitting on their backsides.
Agree with that, but I doubt any UK family would work picking fruit as long as we have the social safety net, and that isn't going away anytime soon. We are about to vote in a labour government, which means there will be at least one more generation of people on benefits and not working.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff