Greek tragedy

[tight fart]

I can't see a thread on this shocking tragedy, up to 500 feared dead, women and children locked in the hold.
750 on a small boat, drinking sea water to stay alive.
Truly heart breaking events.

[JuanCarlosFandango]

The state of that boat. The people organising these journeys are pure evil and the European governments allowing and even encouraging it are too.

[popeyewhite]

And yet people wring their hands when attempts are made to discourage these journeys. Awful.

[Fundoreen]

Not long ago 1 person dying like this seemed to fill the news. Now its 100s it hits that magic point where people dont care.
We seem to stop and pause when its some historic tragedy. Just going through
the motions to please the right people. But this shows its all an act.

If these people are supposedly paying thousands for the trip maybe they should also throw in a lifejacket.
The most appalling thing is parents totally ignorant of the danger dragging the children along to their doom.
Just a shame its in the waters of the terminally useless greek or italian coastguard. Im sure deep down they must feel the shame.

[Quhet]

Horrifying numbers
The Greek coastguard are coming across as properly inept and seem to be changing their story hour by hour. Some suggestions that their attempt to tow the boat contributed to it capsizing...

[pork911]

popeyewhite said:

And yet people wring their hands when attempts are made to discourage these journeys. Awful.

Aye, the constant blocking of those processing centres by left lawyers is a shameful attack on HM Government's efforts.

[popeyewhite]

pork911 said:

popeyewhite said:

And yet people wring their hands when attempts are made to discourage these journeys. Awful.

Aye, the constant blocking of those processing centres by left lawyers is a shameful attack on HM Government's efforts.

I just don't understand why anyone with a modicum of humanity wouldn't put political bias aside and accept ANY plan that attempted to curb these terrible deaths. Truly shocking but I think shows how entrenched views can outweigh moral obligation.

[Derek Smith]

popeyewhite said:

pork911 said:

popeyewhite said:

And yet people wring their hands when attempts are made to discourage these journeys. Awful.

Aye, the constant blocking of those processing centres by left lawyers is a shameful attack on HM Government's efforts.

I just don't understand why anyone with a modicum of humanity wouldn't put political bias aside and accept ANY plan that attempted to curb these terrible deaths. Truly shocking but I think shows how entrenched views can outweigh moral obligation.

It's all politics; from the reason they want to leave their own country to the reason they are not dealt properly in their destinations.

Read an article on how international debt is pushing this, not solely of course, but as an hinderance to making their own countries stable.

You can't get away from it. It's all politics.

A few years ago, a few deaths might well have been enough to make governments at least try to appear to do something. Here we have hundreds dead: men, women and children. No one seems to be doing anything.

[turbobloke]

Derek Smith said:

popeyewhite said:

pork911 said:

popeyewhite said:

And yet people wring their hands when attempts are made to discourage these journeys. Awful.

Aye, the constant blocking of those processing centres by left lawyers is a shameful attack on HM Government's efforts.

I just don't understand why anyone with a modicum of humanity wouldn't put political bias aside and accept ANY plan that attempted to curb these terrible deaths. Truly shocking but I think shows how entrenched views can outweigh moral obligation.

It's all politics; from the reason they want to leave their own country to the reason they are not dealt properly in their destinations.

Read an article on how international debt is pushing this, not solely of course, but as an hinderance to making their own countries stable.

You can't get away from it. It's all politics.

A few years ago, a few deaths might well have been enough to make governments at least try to appear to do something. Here we have hundreds dead: men, women and children. No one seems to be doing anything.

Circular! You've arrived at where the posts were earlier. People (politicians) are indeed doing things, but as above, there are blocking moves which prevent / delay implementation, encourage criminal gangs to continue, and put more lives at risk. The irony is that the blockers thing they're being all moral and righteous and helping, while riding on their imaginary high horse as more people die.

[over_the_hill]

Do these stories ever make it back to the country of origin.
If so do people just ignore the risk and take an "it will never happen to me" attitude.

[croyde]

Ferries and small boats full of people sink and tip over quite a lot, it seems, over on the other side of the planet.

I remember waiting a day for a boat to take us from Samui to Phan Gan in Thailand but so many people got onboard that the water was virtually swamping it and the sea was pretty choppy.

Despite having too many Singhas in us we declined and waited many hours for another one.

But then we weren't desperate to get off the island.

That pic of the boat is shocking and to think there were many more inside

[MBBlat]

IMO there are only two ways to stop this, and the Daily Mail readers will hate both of them.
1) allow safe, legal immigration.
2) improve the situation in the origin countries such that people don’t feel the need to leave.

As long as people are desperate enough to leave wherever they are to come here and feel they have no option but to pay a fortune to a load of criminals for a dangerous voyage these tragedies will continue.

[Ridgemont]

MBBlat said:

IMO there are only two ways to stop this, and the Daily Mail readers will hate both of them.
1) allow safe, legal immigration.
2) improve the situation in the origin countries such that people don’t feel the need to leave.

As long as people are desperate enough to leave wherever they are to come here and feel they have no option but to pay a fortune to a load of criminals for a dangerous voyage these tragedies will continue.

To 1) any limits? We’re now on 1.1 million a year before netting off.
To 2) interesting white man’s burden argument. Haven’t we been doing that for, I dunno decades. Literally 0.7% of GDP going overseas annually before it was amalgamated with the FCO. Doesn’t seem to have worked out.

The Daily mail readers hate it because that’s what has been precisely done for decades. Without interruption of flow.

[poo at Paul's]

JuanCarlosFandango said:

The state of that boat. The people organising these journeys are pure evil and the European governments allowing and even encouraging it are too.

its a fking disgrace. One wonders what Lineker and Co think then then see a pic like that? I'd cheer them on if they ever called out the obscene people trafficking industry and the billions of $ that slosh through it each year, but nope, we are governed by evil people and live in an evil unfair regime.... etc

[Ridgemont]

over_the_hill said:

Do these stories ever make it back to the country of origin.
If so do people just ignore the risk and take an "it will never happen to me" attitude.

There was a decent article in unherd or something of the like that had a journalist joining a column heading out on the equivalent US trail from Colombia (nice place to start) heading north through Panama through assorted welcoming countries like Nicuaraga, Honduras, Costa Rica and finally Mexico. Hundreds died trying to get through the Darien Gap (swamps, crocodiles and all sorts of crap). It’s one of the most inhospitable places on earth (trust Scotland to try and found a colony there a few hundred years ago).

It was hell but what struck me was the unfathomable naïveté of the people being interviewed. They all hoped for a better life for their children (some of them disastrously in toe, and frequently the first to die). They were hopelessly unprepared for the equivalence of a 3000 mile journey. There was a young guy from China who found it his only way to get the US and had pretty much started out with no water or food. The level of utter insanity was beyond. Clearly these people are fleeing crap and drawn like a moth to a bulb but have no idea what they are walking into. I felt pity for the Chinese guy. I felt enormous rage at the parents taking their kids through.

The problem is that there will be someone always able to facilitate the naive and desperate. The fact is that they all think the land of milk and honey is at the end of the trail.

It isn’t. And facilitating that hope is tantamount to being a criminal. The sooner this nonsense is shut down the better.

Edited by Ridgemont on Monday 19th June 00:59

[PHZero]

Ridgemont said:

over_the_hill said:

Do these stories ever make it back to the country of origin.
If so do people just ignore the risk and take an "it will never happen to me" attitude.

There was a decent article in unherd or something of the like that had a journalist joining a column heading out on the equivalent US trail from Colombia (nice place to start) heading north through Panama through assorted welcoming countries like Nicuaraga, Honduras, Costa Rica and finally Mexico. Hundreds died trying to get through the Darien Gap (swamps, crocodiles and all sorts of crap). It’s one of the most inhospitable places on earth (trust Scotland to try and found a colony there a few hundred years ago).

It was hell but what struck me was the unfathomable naïveté of the people being interviewed. They all hoped for a better life for their children (some of them disastrously in toe, and frequently the first to die). They were hopelessly unprepared for the equivalence of a 3000 mile journey. There was a young guy from China who found it his only way to get the US and had pretty much started out with no water or food. The level of utter insanity was beyond. Clearly these people are fleeing crap and drawn like a moth to a bulb but have no idea what they are walking into. I felt pity for the Chinese guy. I felt enormous rage at the parents taking their kids through.

The problem is that there will be someone always able to facilitate the naive and desperate. The fact is that they all think the land of milk and honey is at the end of the trail.

It isn’t. And facilitating that hope is tantamount to being a criminal. The sooner this nonsense is shut down the better.

Edited by Ridgemont on Monday 19th June 00:59

I'd fancy my chances more in the Darién Gap then I would in and around some parts of Glasgow.

Tragic events with the drowned migrants. They can't be blamed for wanting a better life for themselves. I do wonder though, just how bad life was back home for most of them.....

[abzmike]

PHZero said:

I'd fancy my chances more in the Darién Gap then I would in and around some parts of Glasgow.

Tragic events with the drowned migrants. They can't be blamed for wanting a better life for themselves. I do wonder though, just how bad life was back home for most of them.....

Even in the more developed nations and cities of Africa, life is very very hard for a huge proportion of the population. If one family member can get to Europe or the UK and send back a few hundred dollars a month, it is life changing.

[PHZero]

abzmike said:

Even in the more developed nations and cities of Africa, life is very very hard for a huge proportion of the population. If one family member can get to Europe or the UK and send back a few hundred dollars a month, it is life changing.

Fair enough. I hadn't thought of it like that.

This incident is pretty terrible. The Greek and Italian coastguards perhaps could have done more. Much like the French police could do more to stop all the boats heading over to the UK. Although I suspect that they may be encouraged to turn a blind eye. Somebody, somewhere must be making a killing from selling inflatable boats and life jackets.....

[Ridgemont]

abzmike said:

PHZero said:

I'd fancy my chances more in the Darién Gap then I would in and around some parts of Glasgow.

Tragic events with the drowned migrants. They can't be blamed for wanting a better life for themselves. I do wonder though, just how bad life was back home for most of them.....

Even in the more developed nations and cities of Africa, life is very very hard for a huge proportion of the population. If one family member can get to Europe or the UK and send back a few hundred dollars a month, it is life changing.

And the ones that don’t get through, life shortening. There are literally 100s of thousands, if not millions of people all on the move right now. The mortality rate will be horrific. Whether through the Central American trail or across the med (which is a polite word for the Sahel/Sahara route which probably has a higher mortality level).. it really doesn’t matter.
You can try to be generous & assume that countries can handle a million additionals a *year* (ignoring the illegals), or you take a step back and wonder if the entire premise is screwed. Make your way across untold danger and you might be alright.
Or make your way across untold danger and you definitely won’t be alright. The bulb needs to be shut off. And that unfortunately means that legal and illegal immigration needs to steeply decline otherwise you are just pushing people towards their deaths.

[JuanCarlosFandango]

MBBlat said:

IMO there are only two ways to stop this, and the Daily Mail readers will hate both of them.
1) allow safe, legal immigration.
2) improve the situation in the origin countries such that people don’t feel the need to leave.

As long as people are desperate enough to leave wherever they are to come here and feel they have no option but to pay a fortune to a load of criminals for a dangerous voyage these tragedies will continue.

You could try removing the incentives. A very clear and consistent policy of not allowing legal settlement for people who arrive without a valid visa.