Western view of China
Discussion
This is a few years old but I think even more relevant today. Gives a different, non Western view of China:
https://vt.tiktok.com/ZS8TQKQX3/
A counterbalance to the anti Chinese comments that pop up across the forums on here.
I would think that as the Chinese look at the US today, with the breaking down of civil society, I expect they are even more sceptical of moving to the US model of democracy.
https://vt.tiktok.com/ZS8TQKQX3/
A counterbalance to the anti Chinese comments that pop up across the forums on here.
I would think that as the Chinese look at the US today, with the breaking down of civil society, I expect they are even more sceptical of moving to the US model of democracy.
I don't see anything contentious in that video.
But is there really a Western view of China? The public overwhelmingly think what they are told to think. The Western media's portrayal of any county outside the West, whether it is a potential rival or a resource rich minnow, is very skewed to Western interests and plans.
I think we need more real, free and uncensored, speech. Finding the gems on TikTok is a punishing endeavour!
But is there really a Western view of China? The public overwhelmingly think what they are told to think. The Western media's portrayal of any county outside the West, whether it is a potential rival or a resource rich minnow, is very skewed to Western interests and plans.
I think we need more real, free and uncensored, speech. Finding the gems on TikTok is a punishing endeavour!
I don't think that video adds anything, and his points aren't really of consequence.
Nobody disputes that they have had some changes internally from early communist days.
Where "the West" is bothered by China is more because of their theft of IP and spying, military build up with direct threats to Taiwan, unlawful military expansion into other countries territorial waters, depleting fish stocks all over the world including others territories halfway round the world, ethnic cleansing internally. Etc etc. They certainly are not the good guys. I'm not sure "the West" are the good guys either and we have our own issues politically and structurally. But I know where I'd rather live.
And while wealthy Chinese are enjoying more freedoms than they have in the past, they also have constant monitoring by camera and surveillance that puts us British to shame. Add into that social credit systems turning China into some kind of Black Mirror-esque nightmare..... yeah, I'd give it a swerve personally.
Nobody disputes that they have had some changes internally from early communist days.
Where "the West" is bothered by China is more because of their theft of IP and spying, military build up with direct threats to Taiwan, unlawful military expansion into other countries territorial waters, depleting fish stocks all over the world including others territories halfway round the world, ethnic cleansing internally. Etc etc. They certainly are not the good guys. I'm not sure "the West" are the good guys either and we have our own issues politically and structurally. But I know where I'd rather live.
And while wealthy Chinese are enjoying more freedoms than they have in the past, they also have constant monitoring by camera and surveillance that puts us British to shame. Add into that social credit systems turning China into some kind of Black Mirror-esque nightmare..... yeah, I'd give it a swerve personally.
https://www.democracynow.org/2023/4/25/jeffrey_sac...
One opinion piece that may give more perspective to this.
Jeffrey Sachs on China’s “Historic” Push for Multipolar World to End U.S. Domination.
What would you prefer, a unipolar world or a multipolar world?
One opinion piece that may give more perspective to this.
Jeffrey Sachs on China’s “Historic” Push for Multipolar World to End U.S. Domination.
What would you prefer, a unipolar world or a multipolar world?
ScotHill said:
The best observation Larry David ever made - "Who do you think has more freedom, the married man in America or the single man in Communist China?"
As much as marriage sucks, your wife can't (typically) make you disappear or torture you.These false comparisons between Autocracies and Democracies are all about keeping autocrats on top of the tree. We only to look at Russia to see that one minute an autocrat seems fairly benign and the next you're being forced to die for his whim.
There's a reason the Westerners aren't dying on lorries in shipping containers trying to get into China.
Jeanboi said:
https://www.democracynow.org/2023/4/25/jeffrey_sac...
One opinion piece that may give more perspective to this.
Jeffrey Sachs on China’s “Historic” Push for Multipolar World to End U.S. Domination.
What would you prefer, a unipolar world or a multipolar world?
Personally I think we already have a multipolar world, but if you're asking if it would be better if China really got stuck into slaughtering the people in the free countries around them... Well... ask an Indian or a Japanese or a Taiwanese person.One opinion piece that may give more perspective to this.
Jeffrey Sachs on China’s “Historic” Push for Multipolar World to End U.S. Domination.
What would you prefer, a unipolar world or a multipolar world?
BikeBikeBIke said:
Jeanboi said:
https://www.democracynow.org/2023/4/25/jeffrey_sac...
One opinion piece that may give more perspective to this.
Jeffrey Sachs on China’s “Historic” Push for Multipolar World to End U.S. Domination.
What would you prefer, a unipolar world or a multipolar world?
Personally I think we already have a multipolar world, but if you're asking if it would be better if China really got stuck into slaughtering the people in the free countries around them... Well... ask an Indian or a Japanese or a Taiwanese person.One opinion piece that may give more perspective to this.
Jeffrey Sachs on China’s “Historic” Push for Multipolar World to End U.S. Domination.
What would you prefer, a unipolar world or a multipolar world?
Jeanboi said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
Jeanboi said:
What would you prefer, a unipolar world or a multipolar world?
Personally I think we already have a multipolar world, but if you're asking if it would be better if China really got stuck into slaughtering the people in the free countries around them... Well... ask an Indian or a Japanese or a Taiwanese person.I apologise for failing to trim the text to make that clear.
China uses their currency as a political rather than economic tool. They create full employment domestically and dependence on Chinese goods globally. The latter is achieved overtly by the likes of the Belt & Road initiative and also covertly by state subsidies for many industries. Hence why things are so improbably cheap - they are, generally, cheaper to make in China, but not to the degree of the prices we see.
Digga said:
China uses their currency as a political rather than economic tool. They create full employment domestically and dependence on Chinese goods globally. The latter is achieved overtly by the likes of the Belt & Road initiative and also covertly by state subsidies for many industries. Hence why things are so improbably cheap - they are, generally, cheaper to make in China, but not to the degree of the prices we see.
So is China borrowing lots of dosh to subsidise its industry? I think not.The trouble is, they are just better capitalists than the West these days.
You are right to some extent, I have had stuff made in China, and the same thing made in the UK for very little more. But the margins are often small enough that a Chinese item is in profit when a UK made item is not.
5 years ago, we were up against Chinese factories paying half what we did for electricity. That was a big deal when welding was involved.
I don't think that's got better?
The thing is with China, they can turn their hands to most things. You can get almost anything done, adequately well for a good price, They have tens of millions of clever educated hard working people. Many of the Chinese engineers I've worked with are cleverer than me and work harder. Likewise Koreans and Indians. I've worked with quality people from other places too. Even the US&A, bless 'em.
OutInTheShed said:
So is China borrowing lots of dosh to subsidise its industry? I think not.
I did not say they were borrowing to subsidise.However, the fact there are various tariffs being applied to various of their products in the West suggest the WTO agree there are degrees of subsidy or even dumping at play.
For another, domestic example of currency being used politically rather than economically, see the unfolding story of the ghost cities and the banks that (mis)sold mortgages to investors.
Watch the English language Chinese news channel.
You'll get English strikes, French riots, US school shootings, crashing Dow, war in Ukraine then a story about some amazing mag lev train in China, or the building of an amazing new cruise liner, dam, motorway, bridge, robot cars, robots, beautiful looking cities etc.
You'll get English strikes, French riots, US school shootings, crashing Dow, war in Ukraine then a story about some amazing mag lev train in China, or the building of an amazing new cruise liner, dam, motorway, bridge, robot cars, robots, beautiful looking cities etc.
People in China are extremely careful about what they say, even more careful about what they write in messages.
I spent only a brief time there, working. Saw in detail inside 3 factories in different industrial areas and saw outside of countless others. I can say that their access to information and communication is orders of magnitude lower than any 'free' person in most other developed nations of the world.
The working conditions, whilst admittedly better in any organisation that has some Western ESG influence/investment, would still cause any visiting UK HSE officer apoplexy.
People are happy to pay cheap because they don't see the consequences, the origin, in the same way as they'll eat cheap meat.
I spent only a brief time there, working. Saw in detail inside 3 factories in different industrial areas and saw outside of countless others. I can say that their access to information and communication is orders of magnitude lower than any 'free' person in most other developed nations of the world.
The working conditions, whilst admittedly better in any organisation that has some Western ESG influence/investment, would still cause any visiting UK HSE officer apoplexy.
People are happy to pay cheap because they don't see the consequences, the origin, in the same way as they'll eat cheap meat.
Not watched the propaganda.
Billy punter on TikTok can say that the communist party has changed all he likes, but whilst the Uhigurs are still sent to forced labour “re-education” camps, whilst they threaten to invade Taiwan, whilst they disappear / imprison / whatever people on a whim for disagreeing with the party narrative (like the Ali baba guy), then they’ve not changed.
Nor will they ever change, because that’s the system, that’s the game. In fact, they’ve got worse than before because the bloke who’ll imprison you for holding a blank piece of paper (or worse for a picture of a cartoon bear) changed the rule from party rule to 1 person rule, and all the propaganda in the worlds doesn’t change that.
Billy punter on TikTok can say that the communist party has changed all he likes, but whilst the Uhigurs are still sent to forced labour “re-education” camps, whilst they threaten to invade Taiwan, whilst they disappear / imprison / whatever people on a whim for disagreeing with the party narrative (like the Ali baba guy), then they’ve not changed.
Nor will they ever change, because that’s the system, that’s the game. In fact, they’ve got worse than before because the bloke who’ll imprison you for holding a blank piece of paper (or worse for a picture of a cartoon bear) changed the rule from party rule to 1 person rule, and all the propaganda in the worlds doesn’t change that.
We can't help but have a westernised view of China but they don't help themselves do they?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Press_Freedom_...
Article above talking about press freedom (or lack of it) - blue's are good, brown's are bad. I think it's important (and allows me to write this). China does not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Press_Freedom_...
Article above talking about press freedom (or lack of it) - blue's are good, brown's are bad. I think it's important (and allows me to write this). China does not.
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