Junior doctors strike
Discussion
I was surprised no thread specifically on this.
The BBC are running this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/health-64934752
I have a vested interest but am curious how PH view it.
The BBC are running this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/health-64934752
I have a vested interest but am curious how PH view it.
t based anecdata and opinion trumping facts and figures, combined with opprobrium levelled at the gazillion managers who do nothing and add zero value.Given where lower paid NHS workers started with negotiations it’s an opening move that is not going to garner much sympathy. Especially as they have a much weaker negotiating position to start with:
Nurses have taken on more work, become more technical over the years and are struggling to recruit and retain staff.
Doctors have become more specialised, but I would not say they have become more technical and responsible in the way nursing and care staff have, and they are not struggling to recruit (medical courses are still hugely competitive for entry) or retain (less than half the vacancy rate of the rest of the NHS).
When you compare consultants to equivalent roles (chartered professionals, legal professionals etc) it’s hard to say they are low paid in the way nurses and teachers can.
Nurses have taken on more work, become more technical over the years and are struggling to recruit and retain staff.
Doctors have become more specialised, but I would not say they have become more technical and responsible in the way nursing and care staff have, and they are not struggling to recruit (medical courses are still hugely competitive for entry) or retain (less than half the vacancy rate of the rest of the NHS).
When you compare consultants to equivalent roles (chartered professionals, legal professionals etc) it’s hard to say they are low paid in the way nurses and teachers can.
Ivan stewart said:
Loved the comparison with baristas same pay at costa as a Junior doctors starting salary only problem with that is after a few years the doctor only works half the week and is on north of 100k …
The other issue was the baristas in Pret can only make £14.10 in exceptional circumstances. The vast majority earn nowhere near that amount. It was highly condescending to pick out one job to make them sound worthless and yet paid more.
Ivan stewart said:
Loved the comparison with baristas same pay at costa as a Junior doctors starting salary only problem with that is after a few years the doctor only works half the week and is on north of 100k …
Well it takes longer than that, but yes quite rightly a doctor is a well paid profession and a Consultant or GP can reasonably expect to be on six figures, or very close to it. The comparison they are drawing seems to be doctors just starting out who presumably are still training from a practical perspective. Not to say that the pay is ideal, but the NHS seems to be structured around much higher pay once you are a few years in.
I was quite shocked at how badly Junior doctors are paid . Yes , they can earn well later on .
I think they should remove loads of admin people and spend the money where it actually helps patients - doctors and nurses .
The bit I don't get is how will paying doctors more money improve matters in terms of quality of service ? Why do they link the 2 -
Surely they should take a 20% pay cut to allow 20% more doctors for the same overall cost .....
I think they should remove loads of admin people and spend the money where it actually helps patients - doctors and nurses .
The bit I don't get is how will paying doctors more money improve matters in terms of quality of service ? Why do they link the 2 -
Surely they should take a 20% pay cut to allow 20% more doctors for the same overall cost .....
Edited by ds666 on Monday 13th March 15:31
ds666 said:
I was quite shocked at how badly Junior doctors are paid . Yes , they can earn well later on .
I think they should remove loads of admin people and spend the money where it actually helps patients - doctors and nurses .
And what admin do you think is not needed? Or do you expect doctors and nurses to do it?I think they should remove loads of admin people and spend the money where it actually helps patients - doctors and nurses .
Electro1980 said:
ds666 said:
I was quite shocked at how badly Junior doctors are paid . Yes , they can earn well later on .
I think they should remove loads of admin people and spend the money where it actually helps patients - doctors and nurses .
And what admin do you think is not needed? Or do you expect doctors and nurses to do it?I think they should remove loads of admin people and spend the money where it actually helps patients - doctors and nurses .
There are many ways to save on waste, error and fraud which costs the NHS i.e. us, so dearly and savings could go towards better pay for doctors and nurses.
A limited set of examples detailing money wasted are at the link below (pdf).
https://www.pagb.co.uk/content/uploads/2016/11/Fiv...
JagLover said:
Ivan stewart said:
Loved the comparison with baristas same pay at costa as a Junior doctors starting salary only problem with that is after a few years the doctor only works half the week and is on north of 100k …
Well it takes longer than that, but yes quite rightly a doctor is a well paid profession and a Consultant or GP can reasonably expect to be on six figures, or very close to it. The comparison they are drawing seems to be doctors just starting out who presumably are still training from a practical perspective. Not to say that the pay is ideal, but the NHS seems to be structured around much higher pay once you are a few years in.
Lots of doctors are retiring early because their pensions will hit the LTA. Money is low in the first few years but overall it's very well paid.
I agree they need a pay rise but asking for 35% is taking the piss and completely unrealistic.
Personally I would say 12-15% was a more realistic figure to aim for and that would still be double what most people in the private sector got this year...
On year 2 you are on £34k + overtime currently I am led to believe at circa. 24/25 years old which doesn't seem that terrible to me. I know you could be on more than double that in banking at the same age but you would be working double the hours and its more than most other graduate jobs you could achieve at a similar age.
You can be a GP by 28/29 on £70-£80k without living in London which in the real world outside of PH is a very good salary still for that age.
Personally I would say 12-15% was a more realistic figure to aim for and that would still be double what most people in the private sector got this year...
On year 2 you are on £34k + overtime currently I am led to believe at circa. 24/25 years old which doesn't seem that terrible to me. I know you could be on more than double that in banking at the same age but you would be working double the hours and its more than most other graduate jobs you could achieve at a similar age.
You can be a GP by 28/29 on £70-£80k without living in London which in the real world outside of PH is a very good salary still for that age.
Edited by greggy50 on Monday 13th March 15:58
greggy50 said:
I agree they need a pay rise but asking for 35% is taking the piss and completely unrealistic.
Personally I would say 12-15% was a more realistic figure to aim for and that would still be double what most people in the private sector got this year...
On year 2 you are on £34k + overtime currently I am led to believe at circa. 24/25 years old which doesn't seem that terrible to me. I know you could be on more than double that in banking at the same age but you would be working double the hours and its more than most other graduate jobs you could achieve at a similar age.
You can be a GP by 28/29 on £70-£80k without living in London which in the real world outside of PH is a very good salary still for that age.
Still, there is not much more room to go. Looks like average surgeons, consultants and GPs are at about 100k - 110k. For 5 years study and the pressure they are under and the working conditions expected now of them?Personally I would say 12-15% was a more realistic figure to aim for and that would still be double what most people in the private sector got this year...
On year 2 you are on £34k + overtime currently I am led to believe at circa. 24/25 years old which doesn't seem that terrible to me. I know you could be on more than double that in banking at the same age but you would be working double the hours and its more than most other graduate jobs you could achieve at a similar age.
You can be a GP by 28/29 on £70-£80k without living in London which in the real world outside of PH is a very good salary still for that age.
Edited by greggy50 on Monday 13th March 15:58
They can earn double if not triple with a laptop from their couch.
Electro1980 said:
ds666 said:
I was quite shocked at how badly Junior doctors are paid . Yes , they can earn well later on .
I think they should remove loads of admin people and spend the money where it actually helps patients - doctors and nurses .
And what admin do you think is not needed? Or do you expect doctors and nurses to do it?I think they should remove loads of admin people and spend the money where it actually helps patients - doctors and nurses .
Of the things I have noticed recently, regular blood test forms come from the nurse. Operation consent is done online at point of surgery.
When admin have got involved I haven't received all of the forms I needed which was resolved by a call to the nurse - I couldn't actually get through to admin, they never answered the phone.
Claims that it’s unaffordable yet the NHS spends £40 million a year on diversity officers, £3 billion on agencies to provide staff because they’re not paying enough to entice people to work full time.
There’s clearly enough money available, just no desire to spend it in the right places.
There’s clearly enough money available, just no desire to spend it in the right places.
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