What does fining an NHS trust achieve?

[tight fart]

A terrible case of the NHS failing a baby who very sadly died.
But what does it achieve by fining the NHS, they have removed £800k from one
Government department to give to another.
I could understand if it had been given to the parents but the story doesn’t mention that.

[grumbledoak]

What else would you suggest we do? Just let the NHS kill as many babies as it's incompetence and laziness allows?

[tight fart]

grumbledoak said:

What else would you suggest we do? Just let the NHS kill as many babies as it's incompetence and laziness allows?

Dismiss those responsible would be a start.

[grumbledoak]

tight fart said:

Dismiss those responsible would be a start.

Agreed. Good luck finding anyone responsible in a million strong bureaucracy.

[ARHarh]

We could let the "learn Lessons" and employ some extra "diversity consultants". Surely that would be a far better way to spend the cash

[Dingu]

It doesn’t achieve anything constructive, although does make some people feel better as already demonstrated in thread.

[BoRED S2upid]

Slap on the wrist. What’s the alternative? Strongly worded letter.

The cynic in my says the trust then get this funding back somehow.

[vikingaero]

Implement a law to deduct fines from executive pay and bonuses.

[Biggy Stardust]

grumbledoak said:

tight fart said:

Dismiss those responsible would be a start.

Agreed. Good luck finding anyone responsible in a million strong bureaucracy.

I always thought that the person with the job of supervising the activity carries the can, along with anyone actually found to be negligent.

It's a radical concept but people sould be accountable for things under their jurisdiction, even in the public sector.

[Collectingbrass]

1. Fines are the only route for society represented by "the Crown" to exert punishment in a case of criminal negligence by an organisation, private or public, unless the public organisation has Crown Immunity (side note it wasn't that long ago that NHS trusts had crown immunity, so this is shining some light on things we might not have been aware of previously). I'm not a fan of this approach because of the impact on patient services, but there doesn't seem to be alternatives

2. Yes it impacts on patient services, but it also makes it harder for the trust to recruit, especially at senior levels and to invest. Again, lack of investment affects patient services but it also discourages specialist senior staff to stay or join the trust who do like their toys. Want the best people, invest in your facilities. Want to invest in your facilities, don't be criminally negligent

3. At a trust board / clinical group leader level it is a permanent stain on your CV, with all that that brings. Also, it's a big hole in the trust's balance sheet and there are other consequences for the trust board members, especially the CFO if they don't stay in the black. It's unlikely, despite what some people would have you think, that they can find £800k wastage that they can stop in year.

[J4CKO]

Wont go into details but we had an incidence of incompetence, that may or may not have resulted in the death of a relative. I personally dont think the outcome would have changed but this certainly wouldnt have helped.

Things were missed, bks was spouted, arses were covered and generally it was pretty poor.

An investigation was launched, tribunals attended but it was made clear no compensation was being sought, it was simply to get some recognition that this person had been failed by the hospital and a number of staff, some of them quite senior.

From this, procedures have been changed to avoid it in the future, staff were disciplined and some have had some re-training.

We thought that seeking compensation from the beleaguered NHS would be unsavoury and lets face it, it isnt going to help when budgets are tight, they struggle to recruit and the workload is so high. But it needed dealing with, there were some pretty dodgy moves played that were brought to light that couldn't be put down to workload or poor procedures.

[Ayahuasca]

Fining does nothing.

Criminal liability and the threat of prison for trust executives would concentrate their minds.

[Otispunkmeyer]

tight fart said:

A terrible case of the NHS failing a baby who very sadly died.
But what does it achieve by fining the NHS, they have removed £800k from one
Government department to give to another.
I could understand if it had been given to the parents but the story doesn’t mention that.

Buttons.

I read about one case the other day where the kid had sepsis? and they just said go home and take paracetamol. Lost all 4 limbs. £39 million payout.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11661547/...

Apparently the NHS are paying out over £2bn every year on claims. Of course, its so large and there are so many people working for it and so many people using it, statistically some things aren't going to go the right way. They're not going to get to "zero" compensation claims, but I do wonder what the level is. Somehow £2bn seems too high?

[crankedup5]

Ayahuasca said:

Fining does nothing.

Criminal liability and the threat of prison for trust executives would concentrate their minds.

[Dogwatch]

Ayahuasca said:

Fining does nothing.

Criminal liability and the threat of prison for trust executives would concentrate their minds.

Which is why they’ll resist it to the end. “Lessons will be learned “ is much less onerous.

[Jasandjules]

IIRC around 30% of the NHS funding is spent on (1) Court Awards and (2) Fighting negligence litigation..

So a paltry fine is chicken feed but may stop it happening and preventing a multi million pound lawsuit...

I disagree that "funding" is the issue - there is so much waste it is untrue.

ETA - I agree with other posters, making some of the execs personally liable and if they mess up and kill people, perhaps removing their pensions etc will sharpen their minds..

[eldar]

Biggy Stardust said:

grumbledoak said:

tight fart said:

Dismiss those responsible would be a start.

Agreed. Good luck finding anyone responsible in a million strong bureaucracy.

I always thought that the person with the job of supervising the activity carries the can, along with anyone actually found to be negligent.

It's a radical concept but people sould be accountable for things under their jurisdiction, even in the public sector.

Health and safety legislation ought to cover, at a personal level as well as organisational level, the death of person due to negligence in the workplace.

Or is that too simple.

[Slagathore]

Jasandjules said:

IIRC around 30% of the NHS funding is spent on (1) Court Awards and (2) Fighting negligence litigation..

So a paltry fine is chicken feed but may stop it happening and preventing a multi million pound lawsuit...

I disagree that "funding" is the issue - there is so much waste it is untrue.

ETA - I agree with other posters, making some of the execs personally liable and if they mess up and kill people, perhaps removing their pensions etc will sharpen their minds..

From 2020

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51180944

"Estimates published last year put the total cost of outstanding compensation claims at £83bn."

Absolutely astonishing when you think about it. I know they see and treat millions of people a year, but seems a tad excessive.

[Biggy Stardust]

eldar said:

Health and safety legislation ought to cover, at a personal level as well as organisational level, the death of person due to negligence in the workplace.

Or is that too simple.

It's the public sector; an in-depth internal investigation will find that nobody was responsible. Any organisational or systemic failings will not be the responsibility of those who instigated or supervised the system.
Lessons will be learned and various culprits get a promotion.

[808 Estate]

vikingaero said:

Implement a law to deduct fines from executive pay and bonuses.

This.

Ayahuasca said:

Criminal liability and the threat of prison for trust executives would concentrate their minds.

Or this.

Add in some "personal responsibility" for the people at the top on big money and detached from reality.