Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 4)
Discussion
from the last post on the old thread
This means we are not building another factory and not creating another 1250 jobs. But above all it means we are unable to export and bring in cash from other territories
The country cannot wait for ministers to get their act together, the damage is being done now, and its being done because of Brexit
crankedup5 said:
Looking to improve our desirability to overseas investors. great.gov.u.k.>international>investment
I agree that atm the current performance of U.K. plc is poor, however being that brexit is a long term political and trading strategy being implemented. Governments and the Ministers will come and go obviously. One can only trust that a higher quality of both will assist turnaround U.K. fortune
You know that of course, our Ministers will help convince businesses that U.K. is a great place to invest.
For me we are at the starting point, I do not view the current situation as long steady decline, rather a gradual build upwards.
As for the previous PM & Chancellor, well it’s all been aired and most are in agreement of the dreadful mess they caused.
As I said a couple of pages back. We recently secured overseas investment, but only half of the amount bee would have secured if we had less friction with the border to the eu, and easier access to the eu market place.I agree that atm the current performance of U.K. plc is poor, however being that brexit is a long term political and trading strategy being implemented. Governments and the Ministers will come and go obviously. One can only trust that a higher quality of both will assist turnaround U.K. fortune
You know that of course, our Ministers will help convince businesses that U.K. is a great place to invest.
For me we are at the starting point, I do not view the current situation as long steady decline, rather a gradual build upwards.
As for the previous PM & Chancellor, well it’s all been aired and most are in agreement of the dreadful mess they caused.
This means we are not building another factory and not creating another 1250 jobs. But above all it means we are unable to export and bring in cash from other territories
The country cannot wait for ministers to get their act together, the damage is being done now, and its being done because of Brexit
Similarly, we have been shifting investment from the UK domicile team that I lead to other European teams to grow local capabilities in places like Austria/Germany, the Nordics and Spain because of the challenges posed by Brexit. Visas are relatively easy to come by, but they're expensive, time consuming process intensive, and because of Brexit there's an increasing aversion (especially amongst more sensitive clients) to having non EU nationals access their critical systems.
In 2019 about 60% of the work our UK based team did was in the EU outside of the UK. In 2022 it was closer to 25%. We've been lucky that we have been able to replace a lot of that EU work with activities either here in the UK or in MENA, but the work we are doing in continental Europe is generally being funnelled through domestic operations, so even though it's UK employees on a UK payroll doing 95% of the delivery all the revenue (and direct benefit) is being localised inside the EU. And speaking to folk working for our competitors, that's VERY common across the industry.
In 2019 about 60% of the work our UK based team did was in the EU outside of the UK. In 2022 it was closer to 25%. We've been lucky that we have been able to replace a lot of that EU work with activities either here in the UK or in MENA, but the work we are doing in continental Europe is generally being funnelled through domestic operations, so even though it's UK employees on a UK payroll doing 95% of the delivery all the revenue (and direct benefit) is being localised inside the EU. And speaking to folk working for our competitors, that's VERY common across the industry.
Mrr T said:
So what should the UK be doing to achieve the benefits of brexit?
It's a very pertinent question.Obligatory "look back":
During the referendum, brexit was touted to have loads of (potential) benefits. We all know there was/are many variations of brexits - not all individual specific benefits would be available in all brexit scenarios.
Brexit is at its core an opportunity to do things differently from how it was done before to the UK's advantage.
If that can't be achieved, then there was no point to brexit.
So what should the UK do?
Well first up, the administrative stuff that is still ongoing due to brexit. This alone is causing damage to the UK - whether some folk want to accept it or not. Its a fact. Such as:
-Get the border & customs changes complete. The fact that this was neither planned for nor resourced is almost criminal. It was known as soon as the vote was tallied that there would be major changes to the customs/border in all possible scenarios - with the exception of BRINO. There's been two elections since the vote, and this fundamental change still hasn't been dealt with. It's causing far more damage to both imports and exports than the costs of fixing the underlying issues
-Actually get on with the EU deal. Every other country can see how it's being drawn out. It's not a good look when you're trying to do deals internationally
-Fix the immigration issues. The UK currently looks hostile to immigrants. The UK is going to need an influx of skills of various types, like it or lump it. It's actively being a turn off at present. The attitude that thousands are coming across the channel in rubber boats means that the UK is the promised land? That's got to change.
-Stop the political point making that's costing the UK in cold hard cash. UKCA & UK Reach are completely superfluous and of absolutely no benefit to the UK.
All of those should be addressed immediately, even if it means borrowing in order to do so. It's never going to get any cheaper, and is costing UK dearly on a daily basis.
Looking forward, there are many areas where the UK can start taking advantage of the ability to do things differently (primarily when compared to the EU - lets face it, that's where the biggest deviations can be implemented)
-Farming. Fundamental changes will be needed from the EU "subsidise in the name of the environment" approach. Small farms may have the opportunity to go the route of craft/finer foods. Large farms will need to go more the "Agri PLC" route. Unfortunately, mid-size farms will likely loose out - but these seemed to be gaining no ground in the EU environment either.
-Pharma. Outside of the EU regulatory regime, the UK is going to face significant headwinds for retail drugs or any volume. There will still be opportunities for specialty drugs etc. However, a huge opportunity exists for API (active pharmaceutical ingredients). Huge amounts of these are simply bulk materials from places like india & china, processed and purified using validated using GMP (good manufacturing process - basically "pharma-lite"). There are also opportunities to manufacture other internationally regulated materials such as diagnostic materials (ISO13485 etc)
-Engineering. The UK has always been known for this. Time to start leveraging that from 2nd level and up.
-R&D of various types. Essentially a borderless industry.
-Tourism/ The UK offers much of what the rest of europe has, but now things like vat free shopping, and other schemes should be leveraged to the max. Plus there's no shortage or UK specific draws too.
But doing what the UK has been doing since 2016 isn't going to get the UK to where it needs to be.
Of course, mediocrity is also available instead.
M.
Mortarboard said:
Mrr T said:
So what should the UK be doing to achieve the benefits of brexit?
It's a very pertinent question.Obligatory "look back":
During the referendum, brexit was touted to have loads of (potential) benefits. We all know there was/are many variations of brexits - not all individual specific benefits would be available in all brexit scenarios.
Brexit is at its core an opportunity to do things differently from how it was done before to the UK's advantage.
If that can't be achieved, then there was no point to brexit.
So what should the UK do?
Well first up, the administrative stuff that is still ongoing due to brexit. This alone is causing damage to the UK - whether some folk want to accept it or not. Its a fact. Such as:
-Get the border & customs changes complete. The fact that this was neither planned for nor resourced is almost criminal. It was known as soon as the vote was tallied that there would be major changes to the customs/border in all possible scenarios - with the exception of BRINO. There's been two elections since the vote, and this fundamental change still hasn't been dealt with. It's causing far more damage to both imports and exports than the costs of fixing the underlying issues
-Actually get on with the EU deal. Every other country can see how it's being drawn out. It's not a good look when you're trying to do deals internationally
-Fix the immigration issues. The UK currently looks hostile to immigrants. The UK is going to need an influx of skills of various types, like it or lump it. It's actively being a turn off at present. The attitude that thousands are coming across the channel in rubber boats means that the UK is the promised land? That's got to change.
-Stop the political point making that's costing the UK in cold hard cash. UKCA & UK Reach are completely superfluous and of absolutely no benefit to the UK.
All of those should be addressed immediately, even if it means borrowing in order to do so. It's never going to get any cheaper, and is costing UK dearly on a daily basis.
Looking forward, there are many areas where the UK can start taking advantage of the ability to do things differently (primarily when compared to the EU - lets face it, that's where the biggest deviations can be implemented)
-Farming. Fundamental changes will be needed from the EU "subsidise in the name of the environment" approach. Small farms may have the opportunity to go the route of craft/finer foods. Large farms will need to go more the "Agri PLC" route. Unfortunately, mid-size farms will likely loose out - but these seemed to be gaining no ground in the EU environment either.
-Pharma. Outside of the EU regulatory regime, the UK is going to face significant headwinds for retail drugs or any volume. There will still be opportunities for specialty drugs etc. However, a huge opportunity exists for API (active pharmaceutical ingredients). Huge amounts of these are simply bulk materials from places like india & china, processed and purified using validated using GMP (good manufacturing process - basically "pharma-lite"). There are also opportunities to manufacture other internationally regulated materials such as diagnostic materials (ISO13485 etc)
-Engineering. The UK has always been known for this. Time to start leveraging that from 2nd level and up.
-R&D of various types. Essentially a borderless industry.
-Tourism/ The UK offers much of what the rest of europe has, but now things like vat free shopping, and other schemes should be leveraged to the max. Plus there's no shortage or UK specific draws too.
But doing what the UK has been doing since 2016 isn't going to get the UK to where it needs to be.
Of course, mediocrity is also available instead.
M.
blueg33 said:
from the last post on the old thread
This means we are not building another factory and not creating another 1250 jobs. But above all it means we are unable to export and bring in cash from other territories
The country cannot wait for ministers to get their act together, the damage is being done now, and its being done because of Brexit
I don’t think of it as ‘waiting’ I see it as building. I’m not going to go through the same old thing again. but we do not have a choice now. crankedup5 said:
Looking to improve our desirability to overseas investors. great.gov.u.k.>international>investment
I agree that atm the current performance of U.K. plc is poor, however being that brexit is a long term political and trading strategy being implemented. Governments and the Ministers will come and go obviously. One can only trust that a higher quality of both will assist turnaround U.K. fortune
You know that of course, our Ministers will help convince businesses that U.K. is a great place to invest.
For me we are at the starting point, I do not view the current situation as long steady decline, rather a gradual build upwards.
As for the previous PM & Chancellor, well it’s all been aired and most are in agreement of the dreadful mess they caused.
As I said a couple of pages back. We recently secured overseas investment, but only half of the amount bee would have secured if we had less friction with the border to the eu, and easier access to the eu market place.I agree that atm the current performance of U.K. plc is poor, however being that brexit is a long term political and trading strategy being implemented. Governments and the Ministers will come and go obviously. One can only trust that a higher quality of both will assist turnaround U.K. fortune
You know that of course, our Ministers will help convince businesses that U.K. is a great place to invest.
For me we are at the starting point, I do not view the current situation as long steady decline, rather a gradual build upwards.
As for the previous PM & Chancellor, well it’s all been aired and most are in agreement of the dreadful mess they caused.
This means we are not building another factory and not creating another 1250 jobs. But above all it means we are unable to export and bring in cash from other territories
The country cannot wait for ministers to get their act together, the damage is being done now, and its being done because of Brexit
It's taking a little longer "build" it seems... More remainer nonsense: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jan/22/u...
Killboy said:
It's taking a little longer "build" it seems... More remainer nonsense: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jan/22/u...
Arbitrary targets are like that.Vasco said:
Mortarboard said:
Mrr T said:
So what should the UK be doing to achieve the benefits of brexit?
It's a very pertinent question.Obligatory "look back":
During the referendum, brexit was touted to have loads of (potential) benefits. We all know there was/are many variations of brexits - not all individual specific benefits would be available in all brexit scenarios.
Brexit is at its core an opportunity to do things differently from how it was done before to the UK's advantage.
If that can't be achieved, then there was no point to brexit.
So what should the UK do?
Well first up, the administrative stuff that is still ongoing due to brexit. This alone is causing damage to the UK - whether some folk want to accept it or not. Its a fact. Such as:
-Get the border & customs changes complete. The fact that this was neither planned for nor resourced is almost criminal. It was known as soon as the vote was tallied that there would be major changes to the customs/border in all possible scenarios - with the exception of BRINO. There's been two elections since the vote, and this fundamental change still hasn't been dealt with. It's causing far more damage to both imports and exports than the costs of fixing the underlying issues
-Actually get on with the EU deal. Every other country can see how it's being drawn out. It's not a good look when you're trying to do deals internationally
-Fix the immigration issues. The UK currently looks hostile to immigrants. The UK is going to need an influx of skills of various types, like it or lump it. It's actively being a turn off at present. The attitude that thousands are coming across the channel in rubber boats means that the UK is the promised land? That's got to change.
-Stop the political point making that's costing the UK in cold hard cash. UKCA & UK Reach are completely superfluous and of absolutely no benefit to the UK.
All of those should be addressed immediately, even if it means borrowing in order to do so. It's never going to get any cheaper, and is costing UK dearly on a daily basis.
Looking forward, there are many areas where the UK can start taking advantage of the ability to do things differently (primarily when compared to the EU - lets face it, that's where the biggest deviations can be implemented)
-Farming. Fundamental changes will be needed from the EU "subsidise in the name of the environment" approach. Small farms may have the opportunity to go the route of craft/finer foods. Large farms will need to go more the "Agri PLC" route. Unfortunately, mid-size farms will likely loose out - but these seemed to be gaining no ground in the EU environment either.
-Pharma. Outside of the EU regulatory regime, the UK is going to face significant headwinds for retail drugs or any volume. There will still be opportunities for specialty drugs etc. However, a huge opportunity exists for API (active pharmaceutical ingredients). Huge amounts of these are simply bulk materials from places like india & china, processed and purified using validated using GMP (good manufacturing process - basically "pharma-lite"). There are also opportunities to manufacture other internationally regulated materials such as diagnostic materials (ISO13485 etc)
-Engineering. The UK has always been known for this. Time to start leveraging that from 2nd level and up.
-R&D of various types. Essentially a borderless industry.
-Tourism/ The UK offers much of what the rest of europe has, but now things like vat free shopping, and other schemes should be leveraged to the max. Plus there's no shortage or UK specific draws too.
But doing what the UK has been doing since 2016 isn't going to get the UK to where it needs to be.
Of course, mediocrity is also available instead.
M.
crankedup5 said:
blueg33 said:
from the last post on the old thread
This means we are not building another factory and not creating another 1250 jobs. But above all it means we are unable to export and bring in cash from other territories
The country cannot wait for ministers to get their act together, the damage is being done now, and its being done because of Brexit
I don’t think of it as ‘waiting’ I see it as building. I’m not going to go through the same old thing again. but we do not have a choice now. crankedup5 said:
Looking to improve our desirability to overseas investors. great.gov.u.k.>international>investment
I agree that atm the current performance of U.K. plc is poor, however being that brexit is a long term political and trading strategy being implemented. Governments and the Ministers will come and go obviously. One can only trust that a higher quality of both will assist turnaround U.K. fortune
You know that of course, our Ministers will help convince businesses that U.K. is a great place to invest.
For me we are at the starting point, I do not view the current situation as long steady decline, rather a gradual build upwards.
As for the previous PM & Chancellor, well it’s all been aired and most are in agreement of the dreadful mess they caused.
As I said a couple of pages back. We recently secured overseas investment, but only half of the amount bee would have secured if we had less friction with the border to the eu, and easier access to the eu market place.I agree that atm the current performance of U.K. plc is poor, however being that brexit is a long term political and trading strategy being implemented. Governments and the Ministers will come and go obviously. One can only trust that a higher quality of both will assist turnaround U.K. fortune
You know that of course, our Ministers will help convince businesses that U.K. is a great place to invest.
For me we are at the starting point, I do not view the current situation as long steady decline, rather a gradual build upwards.
As for the previous PM & Chancellor, well it’s all been aired and most are in agreement of the dreadful mess they caused.
This means we are not building another factory and not creating another 1250 jobs. But above all it means we are unable to export and bring in cash from other territories
The country cannot wait for ministers to get their act together, the damage is being done now, and its being done because of Brexit
Killboy said:
It's taking a little longer "build" it seems... More remainer nonsense: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jan/22/u...
It's interesting reading that.Responsible minister blades external stuff.
Business blames internal stuff.
HMG still keen to blame others. I wouldn't hold my breath on any changes soon then
M.
turbobloke said:
The survey of international CEOs posted several times already showed the UK as a more attractive investment prospect post-brexit than before in the EU.
Because it's cheaper to invest than it used to be. turbobloke said:
Arbitrary targets are like that.
Like December 2023?HM-2 said:
turbobloke said:
The survey of international CEOs posted several times already showed the UK as a more attractive investment prospect post-brexit than before in the EU.
Because it's cheaper to invest than it used to be. turbobloke said:
Arbitrary targets are like that.
Like December 2023?Second point - arbitrary targets are still arbitrary.
turbobloke said:
First point - so you agree with international CEOs.
Is this a statement or a question? It's phrases like the latter but punctuated like the former. Either way, I'm not really sure what there is to "agree" with. Yes, the UK remains an attractive investment target despite Brexit. Whilst that's obviously a good thing, it's not a "brexit success" unless you count "devaluing the sterling" as a victory, and it's hardly an effective bellwether for overall economic performance. Pretending it's much more than "it's not all doom and gloom" is rather wishful thinking.
I'm glad you agree the December 2023 target is arbitrary.
turbobloke said:
The survey of international CEOs posted several times already showed the UK as a more attractive investment prospect post-brexit than before in the EU. Hardly surprising, except to remainers. Covid and a war are not brexit.
Which CEO's? Are they big investors? Plenty of global companies only have small investment in the UK. The important one is what are the funds doing? Those that invest billions not tens of millions.The funds we see are reticent about the uk
blueg33 said:
turbobloke said:
The survey of international CEOs posted several times already showed the UK as a more attractive investment prospect post-brexit than before in the EU. Hardly surprising, except to remainers. Covid and a war are not brexit.
Which CEO's? Are they big investors? Plenty of global companies only have small investment in the UK. The important one is what are the funds doing? Those that invest billions not tens of millions.The funds we see are reticent about the uk
HM-2 said:
turbobloke said:
The survey of international CEOs posted several times already showed the UK as a more attractive investment prospect post-brexit than before in the EU.
Because it's cheaper to invest than it used to be. turbobloke said:
Arbitrary targets are like that.
Like December 2023?
one thing we can be sure of and that is that there will be no retained EU law in 2024 Vanden Saab said:
one thing we can be sure of and that is that there will be no retained EU law in 2024 There is a clear split in Brexiters in this thread. Those who are pro-brexit, and those that are anti-EU.
Those that are anti-EU seem quite content with any cost or stupidity.
M.
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