Nazi War Criminal Convicted
Discussion
Maybe controversially I don’t know how I feel about this. I get that it is making a point and highlighting that evils like what happened don’t occur again. Although I haven’t looked at the case closely, dragging an elderly lady into court and convicting her for crimes she committed while she was technically a child, under circumstances she probably felt she had no choice in.
Many ex nazis that did far far worse were not convicted, many of which found themselves in power either in post war politics or industry.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64036465
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irmgard_Furchner
Thoughts?
Many ex nazis that did far far worse were not convicted, many of which found themselves in power either in post war politics or industry.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64036465
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irmgard_Furchner
Thoughts?
t. fI'm with you OP, I have no idea what it felt like to be an "ordinary person" in Nazi Germany but I've read a couple of books around the period including an interesting novel recently (that I've forgotten the name of) featuring a police inspector who didn't believe in facism and was conflicted and had his life made difficult along with veiled threats. The author said they'd done lots of research but it's hard to know how close this was to reality.
I suspect that it wasn't as simple as picking and choosing the jobs that you wanted to do and that refusal may not have got you the same treatment as non-Aryan people but it still would not have been well received and had consequences not just for the individual but also for their family.
I suspect that it wasn't as simple as picking and choosing the jobs that you wanted to do and that refusal may not have got you the same treatment as non-Aryan people but it still would not have been well received and had consequences not just for the individual but also for their family.
She was a small part of a very large industrial and complex killing machine. She must have known what was going on (just from the numbers processed), so is as complicit in those murders as the guards who pulled a trigger or herded people into the gas chambers.
She should certainly be sentenced as such, but I really don't think there is any benefit to sending her to prison.
This complex subject is covered somewhat in the book and later film 'The Reader' with Kate Winslet, which is well worth a watch.
She should certainly be sentenced as such, but I really don't think there is any benefit to sending her to prison.
This complex subject is covered somewhat in the book and later film 'The Reader' with Kate Winslet, which is well worth a watch.
I'm conflicted on this one.
On the one hand we have the argument that a war criminal shouldn't be given a free pass just because a lot of time has passed during which she wasn't held to account for her involvement. Pour encourager les autres is a strong case.
OTOH I'd question the value of punishing a very old lady whose involvement might not have been 100% voluntary ,ie what would happen to her if she didn't work there. I accept the point made about nicer living conditions and culpability but what ability did she have to affect the crimes committed?
Ultimately I'd support the judgement but with no strong sense of achievement.
On the one hand we have the argument that a war criminal shouldn't be given a free pass just because a lot of time has passed during which she wasn't held to account for her involvement. Pour encourager les autres is a strong case.
OTOH I'd question the value of punishing a very old lady whose involvement might not have been 100% voluntary ,ie what would happen to her if she didn't work there. I accept the point made about nicer living conditions and culpability but what ability did she have to affect the crimes committed?
Ultimately I'd support the judgement but with no strong sense of achievement.
And here in the UK - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-64029... - man convicted of 50 year old crimes.
Both cases are fine by me.
Both cases are fine by me.
There are so many problems with this.
For example, my understanding is that immediately after the war, the Allies decided who to punish and who not to, on the basis that if everyone who could be viewed as complicit in Nazi war crimes received long sentences ( or death) Germany could not be rebuilt.
Most of the people who were 'forgiven' for this reason are long dead. Should we, the current generation not directly affected by the Nazis, be revisiting that decision in respect of the handful of survivors, who by reason of their youth at the time were not in a a position of authority anyway? And whose actions made no difference?
The idea of pursuing anyone in their 90s for crimes committed in their teens also does not sit well with me - should war crimes be an exception? What if the involvement in a war crime was only tangential/under duress? Where would the line be?
It is really hard, and on balance I think that in this case conviction and a suspended sentence is probably the right outcome.
For example, my understanding is that immediately after the war, the Allies decided who to punish and who not to, on the basis that if everyone who could be viewed as complicit in Nazi war crimes received long sentences ( or death) Germany could not be rebuilt.
Most of the people who were 'forgiven' for this reason are long dead. Should we, the current generation not directly affected by the Nazis, be revisiting that decision in respect of the handful of survivors, who by reason of their youth at the time were not in a a position of authority anyway? And whose actions made no difference?
The idea of pursuing anyone in their 90s for crimes committed in their teens also does not sit well with me - should war crimes be an exception? What if the involvement in a war crime was only tangential/under duress? Where would the line be?
It is really hard, and on balance I think that in this case conviction and a suspended sentence is probably the right outcome.
And, perhaps slightly off topic, as a reminder of how banal even the most dreadful acts can seem at a distance, anyone who has not watched Conspiracy should try it.:
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0266425/
Made using the actual transcript of the Wannsee Conference (called to get buyin from various parts of the German/Nazi state to a decision already made, the 'Final Solution'), the similarity of the 'meeting politics' to that in meetings taking place every day now in larger businesses and (I imagine) government departments is chilling. Civilised people can do ghastly things.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0266425/
Made using the actual transcript of the Wannsee Conference (called to get buyin from various parts of the German/Nazi state to a decision already made, the 'Final Solution'), the similarity of the 'meeting politics' to that in meetings taking place every day now in larger businesses and (I imagine) government departments is chilling. Civilised people can do ghastly things.
tangerine_sedge said:
This complex subject is covered somewhat in the book and later film 'The Reader' with Kate Winslet, which is well worth a watch.
I thought of the film as soon as I read this. Personally, I think it's too far gone to punish people especially as they were a cog in the process - the daily guilt knowing that you were part of the process would be punishment enough. The ones in charge should all have been executed of course.SunsetZed said:
an interesting novel recently (that I've forgotten the name of) featuring a police inspector who didn't believe in facism and was conflicted and had his life made difficult along with veiled threats. The author said they'd done lots of research but it's hard to know how close this was to reality.
I think that's Philip Kerr's Bernie Gunther series, though there are similar themes in Robert Harris's Fatherland?The Germans were far too lax in their treatment of war criminals in the immediate post war period, and are overcompensating now by going after teenage typists and the like. This is illustrated by the commandant in the article, who was also at Auschwitz, who served only a five year prison sentence, but there were thousands more like him.
I would have far rather that genuine war criminals been given the sentences they deserved rather than trawl the old people's homes for anyone with any connection, no matter how tenuous.
I would have far rather that genuine war criminals been given the sentences they deserved rather than trawl the old people's homes for anyone with any connection, no matter how tenuous.
Edited by JagLover on Tuesday 20th December 12:33
BBC said:
Camp survivor Josef Salomonovic, who travelled to the court to give evidence at the trial, was only six when his father was shot dead at Stutthof in September 1944.
"She's indirectly guilty," he told reporters at the court last December, "even if she just sat in the office and put her stamp on my father's death certificate."
Will they start going after the descendants of the people they couldn't get to before they died? How about the intelligent and influential people in the USA who were into eugenics back then, as Hitler was? If a girl stamping a death certificate is complicit, then what of the people who created and shared research into the "science" with German academia which in turn underpinned the motives of Hitler?"She's indirectly guilty," he told reporters at the court last December, "even if she just sat in the office and put her stamp on my father's death certificate."
Edited by rodericb on Tuesday 20th December 12:51
rodericb said:
quote=BBC]Camp survivor Josef Salomonovic, who travelled to the court to give evidence at the trial, was only six when his father was shot dead at Stutthof in September 1944.
"She's indirectly guilty," he told reporters at the court last December, "even if she just sat in the office and put her stamp on my father's death certificate."
Will they start going after the descendants of the people they couldn't get to before they died? How about the intelligent and influential people in the USA who were into eugenics back then, as Hitler was? If a girl stamping a death certificate is complicit, then what of the people who created and shared research into the "science" with German academia which in turn underpinned the motives of Hitler?"She's indirectly guilty," he told reporters at the court last December, "even if she just sat in the office and put her stamp on my father's death certificate."
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