RIP Johnny Johnson. Last of the Dam Busters

[Smollet]

I’m a fairly unemotional person but this has affected me more than I thought was possible. The world is a poorer place with his passing.

[bongtom]

Oh yes, the hero dam busters.

I don't understand the reverence towards the whole dam busters raid. 1600 innocent people were needlessly killed in what was arguable a small "victory" due to limited damage to industrial capability and the cost of rebuilding was significant after the war. But it was ok as it made the Brits feel good about the war.

In fact any historic military campaign, now matter how successful, should not be celebrated. Remembered, of course.

[knight]

A real shame he's gone. I read his book a few years ago and I doff my cap to him and his ilk.

[DeejRC]

bongtom said:

Oh yes, the hero dam busters.

I don't understand the reverence towards the whole dam busters raid. 1600 innocent people were needlessly killed in what was arguable a small "victory" due to limited damage to industrial capability and the cost of rebuilding was significant after the war. But it was ok as it made the Brits feel good about the war.

In fact any historic military campaign, now matter how successful, should not be celebrated. Remembered, of course.

Every instinct I have tells me to write disparagingly of this post, except the one which says you are, of course, correct.
War is hell, it is only ever hell and should always be remembered as such.
That does not stop JJ being remembered as a hero to his country.

[GAjon]

We’re lucky to live in a place where we can voice and write our opinions.

But it wasn’t down to luck. Remember.

[S600BSB]

I recently read Max Hastings excellent book on Operation Chastise. He concluded, amongst other things, that the RAF should have followed up with conventional bombing of the German's rebuilding of the dams. Incredibly brave young flyers.

[bongtom]

DeejRC said:

bongtom said:

Oh yes, the hero dam busters.

I don't understand the reverence towards the whole dam busters raid. 1600 innocent people were needlessly killed in what was arguable a small "victory" due to limited damage to industrial capability and the cost of rebuilding was significant after the war. But it was ok as it made the Brits feel good about the war.

In fact any historic military campaign, now matter how successful, should not be celebrated. Remembered, of course.

Every instinct I have tells me to write disparagingly of this post, except the one which says you are, of course, correct.
War is hell, it is only ever hell and should always be remembered as such.
That does not stop JJ being remembered as a hero to his country.

Indeed, as I said we shouldn't stop remembering "Lest we forget" and all but lets put it into context. War is bad. These young men did what they were told to do. Those guys involved even said at the time they were not heros just "Doing their job".

[andyA700]

bongtom said:

DeejRC said:

bongtom said:

Oh yes, the hero dam busters.

I don't understand the reverence towards the whole dam busters raid. 1600 innocent people were needlessly killed in what was arguable a small "victory" due to limited damage to industrial capability and the cost of rebuilding was significant after the war. But it was ok as it made the Brits feel good about the war.

In fact any historic military campaign, now matter how successful, should not be celebrated. Remembered, of course.

Every instinct I have tells me to write disparagingly of this post, except the one which says you are, of course, correct.
War is hell, it is only ever hell and should always be remembered as such.
That does not stop JJ being remembered as a hero to his country.

Indeed, as I said we shouldn't stop remembering "Lest we forget" and all but lets put it into context. War is bad. These young men did what they were told to do. Those guys involved even said at the time they were not heros just "Doing their job".

"Doing their job" - you have absolutely no idea, do you?
Of the serving members of bomber command during WW2, 55,573 out of 125,000 were killed - 44.4%, that is absolutely horrific. That figure doesn't include the injured, or those who ended up in prison camps.
They gave their lives so that we could be free. Hitler wasn't playing by Marquis of Queenberry rules.

[Derek Smith]

The real legacy of the Dam Busters was the precision bombing they specialised in for the balance of the war. They took insane risks to limit civilian deaths. Without them there would have been more.

Johnson was a hero. He's earned his rest as well as our respect.

[hiccy18]

bongtom said:

Oh yes, the hero dam busters.

I don't understand the reverence towards the whole dam busters raid. 1600 innocent people were needlessly killed in what was arguable a small "victory" due to limited damage to industrial capability and the cost of rebuilding was significant after the war. But it was ok as it made the Brits feel good about the war.

In fact any historic military campaign, now matter how successful, should not be celebrated. Remembered, of course.

I think the reverence originates from the fact it was an innovative and daring raid, hitting back at a time when victory was far from assured. War needs heroes and those guys, "doing their job", were heroes for their country.

I'm not one for glorification of war, but each passing of that generation (my grandparents') takes us one step further away from remembering the horrors of war, and one step closer to remembering only the glory.

[RizzoTheRat]

bongtom said:

But it was ok as it made the Brits feel good about the war.

Don't underestimate the impact on the nation of a good news story at a time like that. Morale is a huge thing.

andyA700 said:

"Doing their job" - you have absolutely no idea, do you?

That was certainly the view of my grandfather, who was a tailgunner and armorer with 617 but not on the dam raids, so would have presumably known Johnny Johnson. They had a job to do, they went and did it, not all of them came home. I still don't understand how he settled back down to chicken farm after that. To us it certainly looks heroic, but it's not what most of them thought.

[Leithen]

andyA700 said:

"Doing their job" - you have absolutely no idea, do you?
Of the serving members of bomber command during WW2, 55,573 out of 125,000 were killed - 44.4%, that is absolutely horrific. That figure doesn't include the injured, or those who ended up in prison camps.
They gave their lives so that we could be free. Hitler wasn't playing by Marquis of Queenberry rules.

The astonishing bravery of bomber command personnel was always something my parents remarked upon. Doing more than one tour seems today to be above and beyond, but then so many showed such exceptional courage.

My wife’s grandfather was a tank commander in WW2 and never spoke about it and never returned to Europe. Being vulnerable in such confined spaces must have been so difficult to deal with.

[CooperD]

RIP Johnny Johnson. Your service will never be forgotten.

[DeejRC]

hiccy18 said:

bongtom said:

Oh yes, the hero dam busters.

I don't understand the reverence towards the whole dam busters raid. 1600 innocent people were needlessly killed in what was arguable a small "victory" due to limited damage to industrial capability and the cost of rebuilding was significant after the war. But it was ok as it made the Brits feel good about the war.

In fact any historic military campaign, now matter how successful, should not be celebrated. Remembered, of course.

I think the reverence originates from the fact it was an innovative and daring raid, hitting back at a time when victory was far from assured. War needs heroes and those guys, "doing their job", were heroes for their country.

I'm not one for glorification of war, but each passing of that generation (my grandparents') takes us one step further away from remembering the horrors of war, and one step closer to remembering only the glory.

That last line Hiccy is a very perceptive line.

[Byker28i]

bongtom said:

Oh yes, the hero dam busters.

I don't understand the reverence towards the whole dam busters raid. 1600 innocent people were needlessly killed in what was arguable a small "victory" due to limited damage to industrial capability and the cost of rebuilding was significant after the war. But it was ok as it made the Brits feel good about the war.

In fact any historic military campaign, now matter how successful, should not be celebrated. Remembered, of course.

So many 'experts' who have never served.

It must be remembered at the time that bombing raids caused very little damage, so this raid was a huge sucess in those terms.

Twelve war production factories were destroyed, and around 100 more were damaged. Thousands of acres of farmland were ruined. Germans instantly referred to it after the raid as the "Mohne catastrophe". Even the cool Speer admitted that it was "a disaster for us for a number of months".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22510300

Never mind about tying up resources and labourers for many months to repair, strenthen, increase defenses, all resources that could have been used elsewhere.

Also, I had the pleasure of meeting Johnny Johnson a couple of times. To limit his achievements to a single raid does him a disservice. He served until 1962 in the RAF, and was a guest speaker at many events back in the 80's with many interesting stories about his time in the RAF and with his later career as a teacher.

[RogerDodgerSuperTodger]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Laurence Binyon?

[RogerDodgerSuperTodger]

Byker28i said:

Also, I had the pleasure of meeting Johnny Johnson a couple of times. To limit his achievements to a single raid does him a disservice. He served until 1962 in the RAF, and was a guest speaker at many events back in the 80's with many interesting stories about his time in the RAF and with his later career as a teacher.

Met him a bit too - a nice guy with time for anyone. Had a relative in bomber command, most of the war stores were harrowing and / or terrifying.

[Wacky Racer]

My favourite scene from the film:-

[DeejRC]

Wacky Racer said:

My favourite scene from the film:-

A scene I remind myself about everytime I poke my head into the aviation section of ph

[Eric Mc]

Except it never happened and he didn’t design the Wellington.