Open letter from union member

[AndyAudi]

So our kids are off & the union is trying to drum support, with “Education is not childcare” idea. I’ll likely attract all sorts of abuse but fancied venting a bit at this without falling out with friends on social media.

Reading this open letter, I sympathise to a degree but it loses my support with a couple of key areas by the author. (However I’m one for looking at numbers rather than emotions).

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid0...

“Did you know that I am top of my pay scale? After 7 years, unless you are in a promoted post, that IS IT for teachers. I will earn this money for the rest of my life, with no opportunity to earn more each day. If I am being honest, this makes me quite devalued and quite deflated”

That’s kinda normal isn’t it for every other job I can think of? The top of the pay scale does still increase each time there’s a pay review just no more big jumps?

“Myself and my husband are two very experienced and hardworking teachers, who work over and above, often to the detriment to our own children, and we are struggling to make ends meet, we should NOT be struggling to make ends meet”

(Curious should that not be “My husband & I”?). However main thing I’m taking from that is, top of the pay scale is just over £42k, As they’re both below the magic £50k they’ll also get full child benefit. I’ll agree, they should NOT be struggling, I don’t know the individuals concerned but if they are struggling on that level of income should we really be throwing more at them?

[RogerDodgerSuperTodger]

I haven’t read the letter but the point you quote about payscales does come across as not having done much research before choosing a career.

[anonymous-user]

So they may be at the top of the scale with no chance of an increase but that doesn’t mean the workload will remain the same. In the last ten years or so the role of the teacher has changed and many are now acting as first line social services, getting far more involved in domestic issues than a teacher would when I was younger, especially at primary level.

So they have taken on considerable additional responsibility for no increase because they are nearest to the problem. Same for Railway staff, cut numbers, pile additional responsibilities on to remaining staff, then chastise them when they dare speak out for a pay rise

I’d Recommend everyone volunteered as a School Governor for a while at a local primary, maybe one with an RI OFSTED rating, then perhaps It will become clear teachers don’t do 0900-1530 and walk away. Our education is crumbling because it’s under funded, under valued and under resourced. Schools are not protected from energy bills rising, that has to come from the school budget, so it’s heating, teaching staff or extra curriculum activities…. Many teachers know what environment their kids are coming from so they will prioritise heating. It shouldn’t be like this

[anonymous-user]

RogerDodgerSuperTodger said:

I haven’t read the letter but the point you quote about payscales does come across as not having done much research before choosing a career.

Well I’d love to have been a hedge fund manager earning millions per year but I guess I joined the wrong queue, as did all the teachers, armed forces personnel, retail workers, labourers and hospital staff…. If only We had done some research….

[ZedLeg]

RogerDodgerSuperTodger said:

I haven’t read the letter but the point you quote about payscales does come across as not having done much research before choosing a career.

Do many people do serious research into pay scales at 18, before deciding to spend 6+ years in higher education?

[PurplePangolin]

AndyAudi said:

So our kids are off & the union is trying to drum support, with “Education is not childcare” idea. I’ll likely attract all sorts of abuse but fancied venting a bit at this without falling out with friends on social media.

Reading this open letter, I sympathise to a degree but it loses my support with a couple of key areas by the author. (However I’m one for looking at numbers rather than emotions).

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid0...

“Did you know that I am top of my pay scale? After 7 years, unless you are in a promoted post, that IS IT for teachers. I will earn this money for the rest of my life, with no opportunity to earn more each day. If I am being honest, this makes me quite devalued and quite deflated”

That’s kinda normal isn’t it for every other job I can think of? The top of the pay scale does still increase each time there’s a pay review just no more big jumps?

“Myself and my husband are two very experienced and hardworking teachers, who work over and above, often to the detriment to our own children, and we are struggling to make ends meet, we should NOT be struggling to make ends meet”

(Curious should that not be “My husband & I”?). However main thing I’m taking from that is, top of the pay scale is just over £42k, As they’re both below the magic £50k they’ll also get full child benefit. I’ll agree, they should NOT be struggling, I don’t know the individuals concerned but if they are struggling on that level of income should we really be throwing more at them?

Let’s see what they spend their money on each month.

[Hugo Stiglitz]

You know what you were walking into. The salary isn't hidden.

Someone should post, yes I'm a teacher too. I didn't realise how much I'd have to work and that the salary wouldn't grow after a certain point..

[biggles330d]

Education isn't childcare, but as the O/H of a head teacher, one of her greatest frustrations with society / community / education is the creeping abdication of parenting by parents to the point that what respect there used to be for teachers has long gone and far too many parents do see school as free childcare where they have no personal responsibility to teach their kids to grow up to be decent human beings.
The kids can do no wrong, not matter how much they lie and cheat and act in the most appalling manner. Once upon a time, if a parent got a call from the school to address a behaviour issue, the parent would very much be on the school's side. Today, inevitably, any behaviour issues is the fault of the school, not their chaotic or disinterested parenting.

Mobile phones, absolutely the most disruptive issue in learning and teaching. Parents phoning and texting their kids while they are supposed to be in lessons and think this is perfectly fine. Really?

But unions aren't helping themselves either. O/H school, she can't do anything without the staff calling in the union rep. Even the most basic management activities like scheduling parents evenings or re-jigging policies. She consults widely, gets general staff buy-in but as soon ass the union rep gets their nose in, it all grinds to a halt. You can't do that, you didn't ask us first. The shadow management approach is killing the joy of the job of the O/H and doing precisely nothing to actually solve some of the legitimate issues the staff are having simply because any effort to change anything gets immediately bogged down in Union interfering. Who exactly are they representing if from the outset consultation direct with staff finds there is no issue??

As for the pay scale issue, if there is a scale and you reach the top within that role, why should you assume that you should get ever larger increments based solely on time in the job? You might not actually be getting any better at it or delivering improved outcomes. Time in the seat is a bonkers way to drive wage increases. You'll get inflationary uplift like everyone else, but like any other industry, if you want a jump in salary then maybe you should consider moving up the org chart a bit to have more responsibility?? If you love being a teacher, and only want to be a teacher, that's totally fine, but you also have to accept the pay for that role is capped. If you can't afford to live one that salary, sorry, go for promotion, reduce your expectations of what you can afford or simply change job for something that will pay you more.

Er, can you tell I'm the O/H of an incredibly passionate but ultimately disillusioned and frustrated school leader who herself in increasingly talking of jacking it all in as life's too short for the hassle of the job these days.

[Tankrizzo]

There's some things which are a bit odd in there (my wife is a secondary maths teacher of 20 years), although I'm sure the PH teachers can chip in as I know we have a few.

teacher said:

Recruitment?! Sorry to break it to you parents who would love to become a teacher instead of their current, stable, worthy job but there are no jobs!

Perhaps it is different in Scottishshire but my mrs's school is absolutely crying out for teachers and can't recruit anyone at the moment (partly because the starting pay is so ste).

The stuff about reaching the top of the pay scale is true (although they are supposed to get cost of living increases so it's not totally fixed, although how much this has happened especially in academies is debatable). However teachers know this when they enter the profession so it's not exactly a surprise, plus the flip side means that mediocre and even poor teachers still progress up the pay scale every year (unless exceptionally bad), this does not happen largely in the private sector.

There's no doubt that the profession isn't paid nearly well enough to attract enough decent staff - this also extends to things like school IT and other staff. But moaning emotional sob stories like this aren't going to win people over when a lot of people are struggling.

The biggest problem for my wife currently is the atrocious behaviour of children, noticeably worse than a few years ago, plus the utter refusal of most parents to accept that their little darlings have done anything wrong.

[voyds9]

pablo said:

So they may be at the top of the scale with no chance of an increase but that doesn’t mean the workload will remain the same. In the last ten years or so the role of the teacher has changed and many are now acting as first line social services, getting far more involved in domestic issues than a teacher would when I was younger, especially at primary level.

So they have taken on considerable additional responsibility for no increase because they are nearest to the problem. Same for Railway staff, cut numbers, pile additional responsibilities on to remaining staff, then chastise them when they dare speak out for a pay rise

I’d Recommend everyone volunteered as a School Governor for a while at a local primary, maybe one with an RI OFSTED rating, then perhaps It will become clear teachers don’t do 0900-1530 and walk away. Our education is crumbling because it’s under funded, under valued and under resourced. Schools are not protected from energy bills rising, that has to come from the school budget, so it’s heating, teaching staff or extra curriculum activities…. Many teachers know what environment their kids are coming from so they will prioritise heating. It shouldn’t be like this

This increase in work loads is occurring or has occurred in lots of other jobs

Why is it such a shock for teachers that they do things outside of their normal 9 - 3:30
For years they have complained that they also have marking, teaching plans and after school activities etc. If they were unaware of this before starting the profession are they the world wise people we want teaching children

[valiant]

I see it’s the teachers turn for the ire of PH to turn on them for having the temerity to ask for a pay rise…

[RogerDodgerSuperTodger]

ZedLeg said:

RogerDodgerSuperTodger said:

I haven’t read the letter but the point you quote about payscales does come across as not having done much research before choosing a career.

Do many people do serious research into pay scales at 18, before deciding to spend 6+ years in higher education?

Likely linked to the woeful financial education in schools.

[dingg]

If they can't manage on a combined salary of 84k then they're likely to not be able to manage on a combined salary of 150k.

Just need to cut their cloth to suit, I'd say....

[AndyAudi]

Good reply pablo,

pablo said:

they have taken on considerable additional responsibility for no increase

This should be the reason they say they need more,
the role has changed they are doing more so need more.

However from when have they taken on that change in responsibility, it wasn’t that long ago (2019) here in Scotland they got a decent above inflation increase I believe to reflect that?

Edited by AndyAudi on Wednesday 7th December 14:24

[Dave.]

PurplePangolin said:

Let’s see what they spend their money on each month.

I wonder if they teach mathematics?

[AndyAudi]

valiant said:

I see it’s the teachers turn for the ire of PH to turn on them for having the temerity to ask for a pay rise…

I don’t mind anyone asking for a pay rise if they can justify it (& the organisation can afford it).

I’d have more respect for the writer of the open letter if they explained why they believe their role deserves more a little more clearly other than we work hard & I spend all I get currently.

[deckster]

AndyAudi said:

“Did you know that I am top of my pay scale? After 7 years, unless you are in a promoted post, that IS IT for teachers. I will earn this money for the rest of my life, with no opportunity to earn more each day. If I am being honest, this makes me quite devalued and quite deflated”

Of course the flip side of this is that teachers get a guaranteed scale promotion, every year, for the first 7 years of their career, no matter how st they are. I can't think of any other job where you have seven promotions without having to take on any additional responsibility.

And, of course, there are an additional three grades known as the 'upper pay scale' which pretty much everybody gets automatically as well. Plus, there are Teaching and Learning scales which are pretty easy any half-decent experienced teacher to get. And that's without taking on moving up and additional formal roles (head of department/head of year/SENco/...) and pretty much every experienced teacher I know does this. And even that is before looking at actual senior leadership roles and headships. So there's absolutely no shortage of ways that an ambitious teacher can increase their status and earning power. Finally - the teachers' pension scheme, despite recent changes, is still very good indeed.

Note that I am not knocking teachers at all - my wife is one. The job is hard and thankless and unbelievably stressful. But one thing it is not, is especially poorly paid.

[fiatpower]

voyds9 said:

This increase in work loads is occurring or has occurred in lots of other jobs

Why is it such a shock for teachers that they do things outside of their normal 9 - 3:30
For years they have complained that they also have marking, teaching plans and after school activities etc. If they were unaware of this before starting the profession are they the world wise people we want teaching children

It's not a shock that they have to do things outside of teaching hours as that is only 6.5 hours of the work day. My wife is a teacher and has to get to site by 8am and rarely leaves before 6pm. On top of that quite regularly she then comes home and does 1-2 hours worth of marking, planning, whatever bullst admin the leadership/education system want them to do. So on a regular basis she does a 12 hour day plus work on a weekend and during holidays. Of course none of the additional work time is paid via overtime, it's all on a standard wage.

Personally if my job expected me to do this level of additional work outside of hours with no additional pay or time off in lieu i'd tell them to get stuffed. Unfortunately a lot of teachers are drawn to the job as a vocation and this is what they want to do so they won't do what i'd do and just put up with it. Slowly though a tipping point is being reached and more and more teachers will quit. Of course there are the jokers who think it's a core day only job with loads of holidays but you tend to find they quit very early on and don't even make it through their NQT year.

[Boringvolvodriver]

dingg said:

If they can't manage on a combined salary of 84k then they're likely to not be able to manage on a combined salary of 150k.

Just need to cut their cloth to suit, I'd say....

Indeed - some of the worst offenders in not managing their finances that I saw when I was a Personal Bank Manager were the ones earning a lot of money!

[BoRED S2upid]

£82,000 and struggling? Not maths teachers then?