The World as we knew it
Discussion
At this point in time the US population is being badly divided and affected by conspiracy lies from within and lies from Russia, and we here navigate a precarious route of being ultra PC but pandering to frankly ridiculous sideshows. Russia has laughed at the West for having ‘too many genders’ and suchlike and they and other malevolent regimes now see us as a soft and easily divided targets. As do the malevolent people here and in the US.
Is true Democracy imploding because everyone in it is becoming polarised and wants to be heard at the cost of everyone else, and to upset the social norms where united strength and truth mattered, thus leaving us all with so much in-fighting we’re losing the plot ?
Is true Democracy imploding because everyone in it is becoming polarised and wants to be heard at the cost of everyone else, and to upset the social norms where united strength and truth mattered, thus leaving us all with so much in-fighting we’re losing the plot ?
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 7th November 19:16
I think the internet aids polarisation. People are more insular anyway now and search out opinions that match theirs and get therm. Self-confirming bias I suppose. Then they live in a virtual bubble and believe most people think and agree like and with them and anyone that doesn't is 'wrong'. The US is in a special version of hell because of its awful and corrosive identity politics.
I'm not sure why you've included issues of "too many genders" and "ultra PC" alongside what I think are much broader and more important issues about Russian interference and polarised views. I'm sure some people do have polarised views on those topics but are they any different from others?
If you're saying you think Russia sees us as soft-targets because we care about gender identity I simply don't agree.
If you're saying you think Russia sees us as soft-targets because we care about gender identity I simply don't agree.
V6 Pushfit said:
Russia has laughed at the West for having ‘too many genders’ and suchlike and they and other malevolent regimes now see us as a soft and easily divided targets.
And how did that go for them?One of the few, faint silver linings of everything that's happened in Ukraine since February is that the Russia and its military has comprehensively eaten s
t (to be frank). Both were beloved by a certain sort of right-wing pundit or cultural commentator as a counter to the 'pussy-fication' of Western militaries and the general softness and woke-ness of Western society, and they'd say we were in big danger from a country that still did things 'properly', with an army of muscly manly-men who drank, smoke and worked out and were trained by having bigger, musclier, manlier men punch and shout at them. Not like our soft white-collar militaries with their focus on skills, teamwork, personal development, leadership, logistics, administrative support and so on. Those people have gone very quiet in the intervening months as the Russian Bear tripped over its own shoelaces (or, less metaphorically, lost a shooting engagement with an unarmed war memorial, had its armoured vehicles stolen by some Ukrainian farmers, had to use personal mobiles for tactical comms because corrupt staff officers had sold all the radios and ran out of supplies because the lorry tyres had all perished).
Stuart70 said:
Polarisation, post-truth and populism are threatening democracy.
It does not mean that it will be lost though…
Agree. I would add in social media platforms for special singling out though. The original premise was to bring people together, which is an attractive ideal. However, in the pursuit of money, we have ended up with a small number of massive platforms owned and run by a limited set of people who really have little care for what is happening. They dont care about promoting fake stories, conspiracy stories and even successive fraud ads in that pursuit - its all money for them! It does not mean that it will be lost though…
I guess its the ultimate expression of capitalism, but I do feel that there arent enough people saying "should we do this" rather than "we can do this". Not enough questions around the ethics. However, its far from lost. Yes, the next few elections are likely to be fraught with issues, but the reverse of all of this post-truthism is transparency - and we will see many of the instigators for the people they really are soon enough.
cgt2 said:
I lived there for a very long time. A lot of smart people but a huge amount of really dumb impressionable people who fall for every slick talking con.
That’s anywhere, not specifically the US. But because the US is so big, there’s a st load more of them in absolute terms. Proportionally though, it’s no different.Rich Boy Spanner said:
I think the internet aids polarisation. People are more insular anyway now and search out opinions that match theirs and get therm. Self-confirming bias I suppose. Then they live in a virtual bubble and believe most people think and agree like and with them and anyone that doesn't is 'wrong'. The US is in a special version of hell because of its awful and corrosive identity politics.
Trumpism, Social media seems to be very effective tool for it. It becomes an established source of information besides or instead of the vested media for those sensitive to the agenda.Make-up a narrative that suits your own agenda and repeat it is as loud and often as you can and eventually it becomes reality among those, the cult, that either want to believe it or are not capable to distance themselves and distinguish facts from fake.
Eventually cults form their own little corner of society, or within social media, in which they gather and repeat their messages. The human social structures, the need to be part of a herd does the rest. It's like religion. Hitler's propaganda minister knew how it worked.
Brexit is another example, ignore the facts that are unfavorable to the agenda and double down on the ones that do.
F1 currently is another example; Hamilton "got robbed" in 2021 is the narrative that the Hamilton cult wants to spread. That Hamiltons race in Abu Dhabi 2021 wasn't affected by Michael Masi mistake of not letting all cars pass is a fact ignored by the cult. That Verstappen was the better and less lucky driver over the entire 2021 season is ignored as well. That Hamilton made a driver error in Silverstone 2021 by ramming Max off the track is ignored. Hamilton got robbed !! Hamilton got robbed !! is all they want to hear.
[quote]
Make-up a narrative that suits your own agenda and repeat it is as loud and often as you can and eventually it becomes reality among those, the cult, that either want to believe it or are not capable to distance themselves and distinguish facts from fake.
Eventually cults form their own little corner of society, or within social media, in which they gather and repeat their messages. The human social structures, the need to be part of a herd does the rest. It's like religion. Hitler's propaganda minister knew how it worked.
[/quote]
Just take one look up here north of Hadrians Wall for a perfect example. With nobody challenging it.
Make-up a narrative that suits your own agenda and repeat it is as loud and often as you can and eventually it becomes reality among those, the cult, that either want to believe it or are not capable to distance themselves and distinguish facts from fake.
Eventually cults form their own little corner of society, or within social media, in which they gather and repeat their messages. The human social structures, the need to be part of a herd does the rest. It's like religion. Hitler's propaganda minister knew how it worked.
[/quote]
Just take one look up here north of Hadrians Wall for a perfect example. With nobody challenging it.
2xChevrons said:
V6 Pushfit said:
Russia has laughed at the West for having ‘too many genders’ and suchlike and they and other malevolent regimes now see us as a soft and easily divided targets.
And how did that go for them?One of the few, faint silver linings of everything that's happened in Ukraine since February is that the Russia and its military has comprehensively eaten s
t (to be frank). Both were beloved by a certain sort of right-wing pundit or cultural commentator as a counter to the 'pussy-fication' of Western militaries and the general softness and woke-ness of Western society, and they'd say we were in big danger from a country that still did things 'properly', with an army of muscly manly-men who drank, smoke and worked out and were trained by having bigger, musclier, manlier men punch and shout at them. Not like our soft white-collar militaries with their focus on skills, teamwork, personal development, leadership, logistics, administrative support and so on. Those people have gone very quiet in the intervening months as the Russian Bear tripped over its own shoelaces (or, less metaphorically, lost a shooting engagement with an unarmed war memorial, had its armoured vehicles stolen by some Ukrainian farmers, had to use personal mobiles for tactical comms because corrupt staff officers had sold all the radios and ran out of supplies because the lorry tyres had all perished).
We are very late to the party of using misinformation to influence populations.
The Russians and Chinese are masters at it and even on this forum I expect there are a number of shills who are pushing a divisive narrative.
Control the narrative control the outcome.
Its not even like they only push one side, its often both to sow discord, to fuel the arguments.
A good example is the latest Guardian article on Fatigue toward allying with UA and that UA should "negotiate" the article has very little fact, mostly speculation and its pushing a narrative that is simply untrue. But, by stating it as a fact its starting a conversation that would not have happened naturally and many will think its happening and repeat it as fact.
See also Brexit and Climate change, those hot potato's attract external interference I'm sure.
The Russians and Chinese are masters at it and even on this forum I expect there are a number of shills who are pushing a divisive narrative.
Control the narrative control the outcome.
Its not even like they only push one side, its often both to sow discord, to fuel the arguments.
A good example is the latest Guardian article on Fatigue toward allying with UA and that UA should "negotiate" the article has very little fact, mostly speculation and its pushing a narrative that is simply untrue. But, by stating it as a fact its starting a conversation that would not have happened naturally and many will think its happening and repeat it as fact.
See also Brexit and Climate change, those hot potato's attract external interference I'm sure.
Randy Winkman said:
I'm not sure why you've included issues of "too many genders" and "ultra PC" alongside what I think are much broader and more important issues about Russian interference and polarised views. I'm sure some people do have polarised views on those topics but are they any different from others?
If you're saying you think Russia sees us as soft-targets because we care about gender identity I simply don't agree.
They have said it themselves "Parades for the gays" and stuff, we say how bad things can be over here for minorities, and though things seem to be improving it isnt perfect but its pretty much utopia compared to how anyone different, or perceived as "weak" in Russia is treated.If you're saying you think Russia sees us as soft-targets because we care about gender identity I simply don't agree.
Russia seems to be more aligned with how Middle Eastern countries deal with minorities than the western world.
America has that toxic element as well, things like protesting outside churches with "God hates Fags" placards, extreme right wing Christianity, the "Jock" culture and celebration of the Alpha male.
Maybe we go a little too far the other way and tie ourselves in knots over pronouns and the like but I would rather that than the Russian approach, and its still pretty new so will need to find its groove. I see of lot of stuff saying "Be Kind", its a simple thing but doesn't seem to be the normal way in Russia, certainly seems that way based on recent events.
Years and years of state sponsored hate and xenophobia weighs heavy, weird to think that there are plenty of folk over there who would love to see "the west" get nuked, thats weird wishing millions die based on where they were born having never actually met them, sure we have that over here as well. I dont wish any harm on your average Russian, just happy for them to carry on in peace and live their lives.
I do think the internet on one hand is wonderful, but now its given people who should have a voice a voice, and those who really shouldn't one as well, its amazing how people feel compelled to spout hate and bile at anything, usually just says to me that they arent happy in themselves.
I will spout a bit of hate, but it usually centres on Putin or other horrific
s and what they do, not if someone famous has got a bit fatter or whatever.J4CKO said:
Randy Winkman said:
I'm not sure why you've included issues of "too many genders" and "ultra PC" alongside what I think are much broader and more important issues about Russian interference and polarised views. I'm sure some people do have polarised views on those topics but are they any different from others?
If you're saying you think Russia sees us as soft-targets because we care about gender identity I simply don't agree.
They have said it themselves "Parades for the gays" and stuff, we say how bad things can be over here for minorities, and though things seem to be improving it isnt perfect but its pretty much utopia compared to how anyone different, or perceived as "weak" in Russia is treated.If you're saying you think Russia sees us as soft-targets because we care about gender identity I simply don't agree.
Russia seems to be more aligned with how Middle Eastern countries deal with minorities than the western world.
America has that toxic element as well, things like protesting outside churches with "God hates Fags" placards, extreme right wing Christianity, the "Jock" culture and celebration of the Alpha male.
Maybe we go a little too far the other way and tie ourselves in knots over pronouns and the like but I would rather that than the Russian approach, and its still pretty new so will need to find its groove. I see of lot of stuff saying "Be Kind", its a simple thing but doesn't seem to be the normal way in Russia, certainly seems that way based on recent events.
Years and years of state sponsored hate and xenophobia weighs heavy, weird to think that there are plenty of folk over there who would love to see "the west" get nuked, thats weird wishing millions die based on where they were born having never actually met them, sure we have that over here as well. I dont wish any harm on your average Russian, just happy for them to carry on in peace and live their lives.
I do think the internet on one hand is wonderful, but now its given people who should have a voice a voice, and those who really shouldn't one as well, its amazing how people feel compelled to spout hate and bile at anything, usually just says to me that they arent happy in themselves.
I will spout a bit of hate, but it usually centres on Putin or other horrific
s and what they do, not if someone famous has got a bit fatter or whatever.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff