First strike by Royal College of Nursing
Discussion
How bad must things be now the Tories' pet Trade Union are likely to be taking strike action? (At least that was how they were portrayed until fairly recently).
I was nursing for 36 years prior to my retirement last year - my ex colleagues are telling me it's horrendous on the wards with absolutely no slack in the system before Winter.
SD.
I was nursing for 36 years prior to my retirement last year - my ex colleagues are telling me it's horrendous on the wards with absolutely no slack in the system before Winter.
SD.
Jenny Tailor said:
It keeps coming back to this....
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1513773698636350
The first thing we need to accept is the cost is going to go up. Whether we fund it as-is, or add in a hybrid of public and private cover, it will still cost us far more than we spend now to get a decent service.https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1513773698636350
That's the starting point. Until people grasp this, there's little point in much further debate IMHO.
There are developed first-world Western countries. There are low-tax countries. There are no low-tax developed first-world Western countries.
We're amongst the lowest-taxing countries. We have the healthcare system we pay for. We have the public services we pay for. Our lack of prosperity has nothing to do with paying too much tax, and arguably lots to do with paying too little tax!
skwdenyer said:
Jenny Tailor said:
It keeps coming back to this....
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1513773698636350
The first thing we need to accept is the cost is going to go up. Whether we fund it as-is, or add in a hybrid of public and private cover, it will still cost us far more than we spend now to get a decent service.https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1513773698636350
That's the starting point. Until people grasp this, there's little point in much further debate IMHO.
There are developed first-world Western countries. There are low-tax countries. There are no low-tax developed first-world Western countries.
We're amongst the lowest-taxing countries. We have the healthcare system we pay for. We have the public services we pay for. Our lack of prosperity has nothing to do with paying too much tax, and arguably lots to do with paying too little tax!
garyhun said:
My bold.... or do we accept that we cannot keep throwing money at this problem and start to look at what the NHS does and make changes to that rather than keep paying more and more.
Ok, so we could cut NHS services. What illnesses do you think should get the chop first? Cancer is a big cost, so we could get rid of that. Or are you suggesting we get rid of specialisms? Which ones? Orthopaedics seems quite expensive, so maybe we start here.Edited by Electro1980 on Sunday 6th November 20:21
Electro1980 said:
We could cut NHS services. What illnesses do you think should get the chop first?
Exactly.Politically toxic to ever cut anything like this.
Boris worked this out during covid.
We're locked into spending +and taxing)
Should really spend more on health eating, exercise, mental health support and social care, if you want NHS spending to come down.
Electro1980 said:
garyhun said:
My bold.... or do we accept that we cannot keep throwing money at this problem and start to look at what the NHS does and make changes to that rather than keep paying more and more.
Ok, so we could cut NHS services. What illnesses do you think should get the chop first? Cancer is a big cost, so we could get rid of that. Or are you suggesting we get rid of specialisms? Which ones? Orthopaedics seems quite expensive, so maybe we start here.Edited by Electro1980 on Sunday 6th November 20:21
It's absolutely irrelevant what I would change, or 'chop' if you prefer the more emotive language, but there are people whose responsibility it is that need to make those decisions.
Or do you believe we should never change what the NHS does and just throw more and more billions at a failing service?
Electro1980 said:
garyhun said:
My bold.... or do we accept that we cannot keep throwing money at this problem and start to look at what the NHS does and make changes to that rather than keep paying more and more.
We could cut NHS services. What illnesses do you think should get the chop first?There is another thread about the need to reorganize the NHS and where to start. The NHS as a whole is a big unwieldy organization that despite various attempts by governments of both colours to sort it out remains exactly that!
Some of the attempts to make it run like a private enterprise have failed and imo, made things worse given that every trust has a management structure so that in the NE and Yorkshire , there are 33 Trusts.
No idea where to start though but cutting front line services is not the answer.
Declaration of interest- I volunteer for the local Ambulance Service and even that needs sorting out!
Ian Geary said:
Electro1980 said:
We could cut NHS services. What illnesses do you think should get the chop first?
Exactly.Politically toxic to ever cut anything like this.
Boris worked this out during covid.
We're locked into spending +and taxing)
Should really spend more on health eating, exercise, mental health support and social care, if you want NHS spending to come down.
Other countries have implemented drunk tanks.
eg. Going out every weekend on the piss....... it you are going to be a pain - it's going to hit your wallet.
As I mentioned earlier - in needs a discussion on what treatments should be paid for by the populous.
cc3 said:
Those who can afford it need to go private for routine stuff The NHS will never be able to cope it’s too big too inefficient. Nurses get an average of about £35000 currently not great but not a disaster asking for 5% over inflation is a joke
It would be much more cost-effective for "those who can afford it" to pay more tax, and provide a decent NHS for everyone - no need to line the pockets of private companies with excess profits that way 
The NHS isn't inefficient - it is really very good value for money. What you see as inefficiency is mostly under-funding.
garyhun said:
Electro1980 said:
garyhun said:
My bold.... or do we accept that we cannot keep throwing money at this problem and start to look at what the NHS does and make changes to that rather than keep paying more and more.
Ok, so we could cut NHS services. What illnesses do you think should get the chop first? Cancer is a big cost, so we could get rid of that. Or are you suggesting we get rid of specialisms? Which ones? Orthopaedics seems quite expensive, so maybe we start here.Edited by Electro1980 on Sunday 6th November 20:21
It's absolutely irrelevant what I would change, or 'chop' if you prefer the more emotive language, but there are people whose responsibility it is that need to make those decisions.
Or do you believe we should never change what the NHS does and just throw more and more billions at a failing service?
The NHS isn't failing because it can't deliver against sensible metrics; it is failing because demand is way ahead of supply.
And if you don't have an NHS, what then? Are you ok with yet more begging, yet more stealing, working-age people dying or being bankrupted through treatable illness?
Only the USA tries to avoid having a proper healthcare system. The outcomes are terrible - and the cost astronomical. What other grown-up country tries to deliver healthcare on the cheap like the UK?
Jenny Tailor said:
Other countries have implemented drunk tanks.
eg. Going out every weekend on the piss....... it you are going to be a pain - it's going to hit your wallet.
What percentage of NHS spending is taken up by drunk people?eg. Going out every weekend on the piss....... it you are going to be a pain - it's going to hit your wallet.
Jenny Tailor said:
As I mentioned earlier - in needs a discussion on what treatments should be paid for by the populous.
And what of the rest of it? How many people dying needlessly is the right number for you? And which countries provide a model you'd like to copy instead, that costs so much less and delivers the same or so much more?We can't have a discussion until we establish where we are now. I don't think most people understand how good value the NHS is compared to elsewhere.
skwdenyer said:
cc3 said:
Those who can afford it need to go private for routine stuff The NHS will never be able to cope it’s too big too inefficient. Nurses get an average of about £35000 currently not great but not a disaster asking for 5% over inflation is a joke
It would be much more cost-effective for "those who can afford it" to pay more tax, and provide a decent NHS for everyone - no need to line the pockets of private companies with excess profits that way The NHS isn't inefficient - it is really very good value for money. What you see as inefficiency is mostly under-funding.
skwdenyer said:
cc3 said:
Those who can afford it need to go private for routine stuff The NHS will never be able to cope it’s too big too inefficient. Nurses get an average of about £35000 currently not great but not a disaster asking for 5% over inflation is a joke
It would be much more cost-effective for "those who can afford it" to pay more tax, and provide a decent NHS for everyone - no need to line the pockets of private companies with excess profits that way The NHS isn't inefficient - it is really very good value for money. What you see as inefficiency is mostly under-funding.
skwdenyer said:
Jenny Tailor said:
Other countries have implemented drunk tanks.
eg. Going out every weekend on the piss....... it you are going to be a pain - it's going to hit your wallet.
What percentage of NHS spending is taken up by drunk people?eg. Going out every weekend on the piss....... it you are going to be a pain - it's going to hit your wallet.
Jenny Tailor said:
As I mentioned earlier - in needs a discussion on what treatments should be paid for by the populous.
And what of the rest of it? How many people dying needlessly is the right number for you? And which countries provide a model you'd like to copy instead, that costs so much less and delivers the same or so much more?We can't have a discussion until we establish where we are now. I don't think most people understand how good value the NHS is compared to elsewhere.
Ye Gods.
I agree with what Anne Widdicombe says.
The NHS has been founded under assumptions that have been proven not to be true.
We need all parties to work together on what should and should not be paid for carte blanche.
Some countries have made decisions which means doctor's appointments are less likely to be cancelled.
The NHS has made made good decisions and many bad ones.
eg. Should breast scanners ( insert whatever medical kit you can think of ) - be mobile - or be in the hospital.
It needs a complete clean sheet of paper rethink..
eg Can Gerry Robinson fix the NHS.
This was 3 months - and the inefficiencies he identified eg. Most surgeons were on the golf course on Friday....., lining up the next operation takes too long....
skwdenyer said:
cc3 said:
Those who can afford it need to go private for routine stuff The NHS will never be able to cope it’s too big too inefficient. Nurses get an average of about £35000 currently not great but not a disaster asking for 5% over inflation is a joke
It would be much more cost-effective for "those who can afford it" to pay more tax, and provide a decent NHS for everyone - no need to line the pockets of private companies with excess profits that way The NHS isn't inefficient - it is really very good value for money. What you see as inefficiency is mostly under-funding.
PurplePangolin said:
skwdenyer said:
cc3 said:
Those who can afford it need to go private for routine stuff The NHS will never be able to cope it’s too big too inefficient. Nurses get an average of about £35000 currently not great but not a disaster asking for 5% over inflation is a joke
It would be much more cost-effective for "those who can afford it" to pay more tax, and provide a decent NHS for everyone - no need to line the pockets of private companies with excess profits that way The NHS isn't inefficient - it is really very good value for money. What you see as inefficiency is mostly under-funding.
Surely we pay money to the Govt - to save our lives if we are taken ill - then I don't care who does my operation.
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