Where did all the employees go?
Discussion
Apologies if this is part of long threads but it seems like we've run out of people to work, but where did they all go? I think/heard it was:
- Foreign workers went home when COVID stopped the country and they could not work/earn enough to live here (I know one Polish family who did this).
- BREXIT meant they could not get back and work here easily - not sure how true this is
- People near retirement ages decided doing nothing over COVID was great and so rebudgetted to get them to their pensions and not work after the pandemic
Some are just not incentivised to work for the rewards currently on offer. If wages increased (which also means an increase in prices), it might mean some of the economically inactive people might want to train up to do these jobs.
We will probably have to start importing foreign labour again in the short term to fill certain jobs.
Back to your original question, Brexit and Covid had a lot to do with it for sure.
We will probably have to start importing foreign labour again in the short term to fill certain jobs.
Back to your original question, Brexit and Covid had a lot to do with it for sure.
I think so.
Pre-2019 a lot of our staff were European. Nowadays almost 100% of our applicants are UK nationals and we are struggling to get the right calibre of candidates. Increasing salaries above market rates only works for a short while because we're all competing for the same staff and there aren't enough to go round.
Pre-2019 a lot of our staff were European. Nowadays almost 100% of our applicants are UK nationals and we are struggling to get the right calibre of candidates. Increasing salaries above market rates only works for a short while because we're all competing for the same staff and there aren't enough to go round.
Countdown said:
I think so.
Pre-2019 a lot of our staff were European. Nowadays almost 100% of our applicants are UK nationals and we are struggling to get the right calibre of candidates. Increasing salaries above market rates only works for a short while because we're all competing for the same staff and there aren't enough to go round.
Sure there has been a severe brain drain courtesy of Brexit. In the FS industry where I worked we absolutely needed the multi cultural and multi lingual skillset to add value and justify a premium against other countries for the global service we provided. Sadly, Brexit has litteraly become a competitive disadvantage and cost the country valuable export business. Pre-2019 a lot of our staff were European. Nowadays almost 100% of our applicants are UK nationals and we are struggling to get the right calibre of candidates. Increasing salaries above market rates only works for a short while because we're all competing for the same staff and there aren't enough to go round.
The good thing is the gap might also be filled in the future by countries such as India. Already we are seeing an increase in the number of student and work visas for Indian nationals. Hopefully the students will continue to work in the UK and add to the workforce rather than taking their talents abroad or back home.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/india-receives-...
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/india-receives-...
Frimley111R said:
Apologies if this is part of long threads but it seems like we've run out of people to work, but where did they all go? I think/heard it was:
With the current energy crisis upon us, whatever help the Government conjure up in the form of subsidy plenty of businesses will be going bust. That will mean plenty of workers seeking alternative employment. Don’t know what numbers will be like, that depends on how long the energy crisis lasts and how deep the recession will be. Massive changes ahead, we are not alone in any of this, a quick glance across mainland Europe tells a similar story.- Foreign workers went home when COVID stopped the country and they could not work/earn enough to live here (I know one Polish family who did this).
- BREXIT meant they could not get back and work here easily - not sure how true this is
- People near retirement ages decided doing nothing over COVID was great and so rebudgetted to get them to their pensions and not work after the pandemic
Edited by crankedup5 on Wednesday 21st September 17:22
yesterjay said:
To add, a number of our Western European colleagues had their hands forced to return to their country of origin for various reasons due to Brexit too.
Meaning our client pool shrank due to language limitations but also that diversity and skill set loss then has an impact on bringing new employees in. Multicultural diversity etc has been a big draw in City life for the last decades.
The U.K. is not confined to London, the last few decades saw so much of the U.K. ignored and brushed aside leading to dissatisfaction and ultimately brexit.Meaning our client pool shrank due to language limitations but also that diversity and skill set loss then has an impact on bringing new employees in. Multicultural diversity etc has been a big draw in City life for the last decades.
I dropped out of the workforce over Covid.
Financially, I realised how little I need to live and stepped down a level in spending. On the credit side, the stock markets and property markets did well giving a longer runway getting me over the line for retirement much earlier than I thought.
Work wise, I lost interest due to working remotely and Zoom life, but also the uplift in office politics, virtue signalling etc. I don’t think I’d last for 5 minutes with my right leaning views and belief that work should be done from the office!
I also had a bit of a change in perspective. Work was always very important to me, but now I value free time, hobbies, time with family etc more.
A lot of my friends seem to be a similar mindset. Where they are working, it is way down their list of priorities and they all have half an eye on the exit.
Financially, I realised how little I need to live and stepped down a level in spending. On the credit side, the stock markets and property markets did well giving a longer runway getting me over the line for retirement much earlier than I thought.
Work wise, I lost interest due to working remotely and Zoom life, but also the uplift in office politics, virtue signalling etc. I don’t think I’d last for 5 minutes with my right leaning views and belief that work should be done from the office!
I also had a bit of a change in perspective. Work was always very important to me, but now I value free time, hobbies, time with family etc more.
A lot of my friends seem to be a similar mindset. Where they are working, it is way down their list of priorities and they all have half an eye on the exit.
I am one of those 55 plus year olds who have decided to not work any more. I don't want the stress of managing teams any more and if that means earning £25k a year then I am not going to bother finding work. If employers were willing to pay for skilled Labour I would go back to work. I have years of experience building prototypes of all kind of machines and consumer products, but for little more than minimum wage they are going to have to struggle with trying to find the skilled Labour at the job center.
s1962a said:
The good thing is the gap might also be filled in the future by countries such as India. Already we are seeing an increase in the number of student and work visas for Indian nationals. Hopefully the students will continue to work in the UK and add to the workforce rather than taking their talents abroad or back home.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/india-receives-...
So this means we go rid of out near neighbors to just replace them with people from the other side of the world.https://www.gov.uk/government/news/india-receives-...
On top of that we cant go to europe easily anymore. Prisoners in the uk.
Brexit vote was no doubt tipped in favour by the old,stupid.non working and people from the other side of the world demanding equal access.
No wonder its a mess.
Brexit sent a message that the UK is a closed shop. It telegraphed to every immigrant worker that they are unwanted, on top of literally closing the door to many of them. Presumably these productives are now happily contributing in other economies.
I think that the pandemic has had a profound affect upon attitudes towards work.
For some it was a period when they were paid a lot of money for doing nothing. Those people will have returned to work and finding that suddenly all of the free time they enjoyed is gone and the financial upside of going back to work is negligible to nil.
Many lost their jobs, disrupting their momentum, maybe creating a break in their careers where they retired, went part time, changed industry etc.
Many people worked throughout covid and experienced a workplace where others were losing their jobs. They are now thoroughly burned out at best because of all the disruption and the re-distribution of all that extra work.
I went from working in an office, to working hard from home a year whilst the company laid everyone off, then when the work dried up I got laid off myself. I spent several months out of work... I felt used up. I was also resentful that I didn't benefit from furlough at all. When I returned to work I was dispirited with the whole hamster wheel. Workplace platitudes relating to loyalty, being rewarded for your efforts, going 'above and beyond', seem thinner than ever.
I think that the pandemic has had a profound affect upon attitudes towards work.
For some it was a period when they were paid a lot of money for doing nothing. Those people will have returned to work and finding that suddenly all of the free time they enjoyed is gone and the financial upside of going back to work is negligible to nil.
Many lost their jobs, disrupting their momentum, maybe creating a break in their careers where they retired, went part time, changed industry etc.
Many people worked throughout covid and experienced a workplace where others were losing their jobs. They are now thoroughly burned out at best because of all the disruption and the re-distribution of all that extra work.
I went from working in an office, to working hard from home a year whilst the company laid everyone off, then when the work dried up I got laid off myself. I spent several months out of work... I felt used up. I was also resentful that I didn't benefit from furlough at all. When I returned to work I was dispirited with the whole hamster wheel. Workplace platitudes relating to loyalty, being rewarded for your efforts, going 'above and beyond', seem thinner than ever.
Edited by HustleRussell on Wednesday 21st September 18:15
Fundoreen said:
s1962a said:
The good thing is the gap might also be filled in the future by countries such as India. Already we are seeing an increase in the number of student and work visas for Indian nationals. Hopefully the students will continue to work in the UK and add to the workforce rather than taking their talents abroad or back home.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/india-receives-...
So this means we go rid of out near neighbors to just replace them with people from the other side of the world.https://www.gov.uk/government/news/india-receives-...
On top of that we cant go to europe easily anymore. Prisoners in the uk.
Brexit vote was no doubt tipped in favour by the old,stupid.non working and people from the other side of the world demanding equal access.
No wonder its a mess.
s1962a said:
The good thing is the gap might also be filled in the future by countries such as India. Already we are seeing an increase in the number of student and work visas for Indian nationals. Hopefully the students will continue to work in the UK and add to the workforce rather than taking their talents abroad or back home.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/india-receives-...
How is this any better than French, Italian or Spanish staff we had pre-Brexit/Covid? I would argue it's worse, Indian employees are no doubt far more likely to send money home removing it from the UK economy, or in the case of some of the Indian staff we have they are simply to act as a link between the business here, and the work outsourced to India at less than half the cost of getting it done in the UK.https://www.gov.uk/government/news/india-receives-...
Our desk lost 80% of the European staff, not because of Brexit, but because of Covid. Having now left the UK there is little incentive (or indeed, opportunity) for them, or anyone else from those countries, to come back.
As much as you can argue for higher wages to attract staff, if there were 11 people doing 10 jobs (1 person moving between jobs or studying), then 2 of them go home, it doesn't matter how much you pay you still have 10 jobs and 9 people to fill them!
Vasco said:
Fundoreen said:
s1962a said:
The good thing is the gap might also be filled in the future by countries such as India. Already we are seeing an increase in the number of student and work visas for Indian nationals. Hopefully the students will continue to work in the UK and add to the workforce rather than taking their talents abroad or back home.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/india-receives-...
So this means we go rid of out near neighbors to just replace them with people from the other side of the world.https://www.gov.uk/government/news/india-receives-...
On top of that we cant go to europe easily anymore. Prisoners in the uk.
Brexit vote was no doubt tipped in favour by the old,stupid.non working and people from the other side of the world demanding equal access.
No wonder its a mess.
I had a long chat with a guy in the local job centre yesterday. Yes there was a Brexit effect but the reality is there are jobs which pay similar money in the EU now. which has led many home.
Having said that a lot of Eastern Europeans are still here working hard and do not see us as a closed shop, quite the opposite in fact.
The two biggest reasons are people retiring, having seen how much they can live on has made some cash in their pension pot and now are relaxing.
The second is so many with young kids have found how much money they can get not working. The money will drop to Universal credit after 6 months but those on minimum wage jobs can get by.
Add in all the tricks that some learn along the way to top up money and it is easy to see why some have chosen not to return to work.
We now have 6 million getting disability payments of one type or another, so one in ten of the population is now disabled, this shot up after Covid I was told.
If you look at the UC credit rules, you can top up all sorts if you know the tricks.
What is the answer, well the obvious one is cut the money they can get for not working, but that is a political problem so no one really wants to do that. Make the test for disability harder, this always catches the odd people who need that help and the ones who know the system never get caught. We need to define what is a disability that stops a person working, I had an amputee who drove for me. It was his left leg so he was okay with the clutch, he wanted to work as do many thousands with disabilities. The problem with that again is bad press.
Make work better, having seen huge warehouse staff run ragged, there is no doubt that more automation will come in and ease their workload, if you treat people well they will work for you.
I do not have the answers but we need to face reality and get the people working instead of taking out of the system
Having said that a lot of Eastern Europeans are still here working hard and do not see us as a closed shop, quite the opposite in fact.
The two biggest reasons are people retiring, having seen how much they can live on has made some cash in their pension pot and now are relaxing.
The second is so many with young kids have found how much money they can get not working. The money will drop to Universal credit after 6 months but those on minimum wage jobs can get by.
Add in all the tricks that some learn along the way to top up money and it is easy to see why some have chosen not to return to work.
We now have 6 million getting disability payments of one type or another, so one in ten of the population is now disabled, this shot up after Covid I was told.
If you look at the UC credit rules, you can top up all sorts if you know the tricks.
What is the answer, well the obvious one is cut the money they can get for not working, but that is a political problem so no one really wants to do that. Make the test for disability harder, this always catches the odd people who need that help and the ones who know the system never get caught. We need to define what is a disability that stops a person working, I had an amputee who drove for me. It was his left leg so he was okay with the clutch, he wanted to work as do many thousands with disabilities. The problem with that again is bad press.
Make work better, having seen huge warehouse staff run ragged, there is no doubt that more automation will come in and ease their workload, if you treat people well they will work for you.
I do not have the answers but we need to face reality and get the people working instead of taking out of the system
It is not just a Brexit issue. I have had the same conversation in Germany, France, Italy, Poland, Netherlands and the USA. All are facing a shortage of skilled production engineers and machinists. Top dollar is being offered but no one is out there. I know of some manufacturing companies offering 40-50% above pre Covid levels plus flexible working hours.
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