Unrest in Iran - demonstrations against the Morality Police
Discussion
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-62967...
I didn't see any threads on this - seems like there are major protests kicking off in Iran, caused by the death of a woman who had been detained by the morality Police...
Haven't seen much on it yet, but is this a short term thing, or is there growing unrest?
I didn't see any threads on this - seems like there are major protests kicking off in Iran, caused by the death of a woman who had been detained by the morality Police...
Haven't seen much on it yet, but is this a short term thing, or is there growing unrest?
Fatboy said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-62967...
I didn't see any threads on this - seems like there are major protests kicking off in Iran, caused by the death of a woman who had been detained by the morality Police...
Haven't seen much on it yet, but is this a short term thing, or is there growing unrest?
I find it ironic that the women in Iran are burning their head scarves as a sign of oppression. Here in the UK people make out that women wearing a head scarf is a symbol of cultural identity in a nicey nice way..I didn't see any threads on this - seems like there are major protests kicking off in Iran, caused by the death of a woman who had been detained by the morality Police...
Haven't seen much on it yet, but is this a short term thing, or is there growing unrest?
Personally I know which one I believe.
I recall a year or so ago, when the European media was reporting heavily on the Navalny protests/goings on.
A friend who works studying security/politics told me it was really a fringe movement in Russia, and not at all getting wide support.
The reason European media reported it so vigorously was because it served our political agenda.
So part of me wonders to what extent this protest is widespread and represents a real sea change moment? Or is just small, isolated incidents being played up.
In the same way russian state TV might video a stop oil protest and claim the whole UK is ready to overthrow the govt.
The lady's death was senseless and shocking, and is a solemn reminder of the things we take for granted in the west.
But ultimately: it's their country, their rules, their state run morality police. Much as we don't like it, didn't the UK get the whole telling other places how to run out of it's system 100 years ago?
A friend who works studying security/politics told me it was really a fringe movement in Russia, and not at all getting wide support.
The reason European media reported it so vigorously was because it served our political agenda.
So part of me wonders to what extent this protest is widespread and represents a real sea change moment? Or is just small, isolated incidents being played up.
In the same way russian state TV might video a stop oil protest and claim the whole UK is ready to overthrow the govt.
The lady's death was senseless and shocking, and is a solemn reminder of the things we take for granted in the west.
But ultimately: it's their country, their rules, their state run morality police. Much as we don't like it, didn't the UK get the whole telling other places how to run out of it's system 100 years ago?
Four Litre said:
Fatboy said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-62967...
I didn't see any threads on this - seems like there are major protests kicking off in Iran, caused by the death of a woman who had been detained by the morality Police...
Haven't seen much on it yet, but is this a short term thing, or is there growing unrest?
I find it ironic that the women in Iran are burning their head scarves as a sign of oppression. Here in the UK people make out that women wearing a head scarf is a symbol of cultural identity in a nicey nice way..I didn't see any threads on this - seems like there are major protests kicking off in Iran, caused by the death of a woman who had been detained by the morality Police...
Haven't seen much on it yet, but is this a short term thing, or is there growing unrest?
Personally I know which one I believe.
While undoubtedly some people do not get a 'choice' because of family and social pressure and that could be described as opressive, in the eyes of the law, they have the freedom to choose.
Iran is oppressive because the Government enforces adherence to a religious dresscode. There is no freedom.
Ian Geary said:
I recall a year or so ago, when the European media was reporting heavily on the Navalny protests/goings on.
A friend who works studying security/politics told me it was really a fringe movement in Russia, and not at all getting wide support.
The reason European media reported it so vigorously was because it served our political agenda.
So part of me wonders to what extent this protest is widespread and represents a real sea change moment? Or is just small, isolated incidents being played up.
In the same way russian state TV might video a stop oil protest and claim the whole UK is ready to overthrow the govt.
The lady's death was senseless and shocking, and is a solemn reminder of the things we take for granted in the west.
But ultimately: it's their country, their rules, their state run morality police. Much as we don't like it, didn't the UK get the whole telling other places how to run out of it's system 100 years ago?
They have removed access to the internet. This is not just a local spat on a street corner.A friend who works studying security/politics told me it was really a fringe movement in Russia, and not at all getting wide support.
The reason European media reported it so vigorously was because it served our political agenda.
So part of me wonders to what extent this protest is widespread and represents a real sea change moment? Or is just small, isolated incidents being played up.
In the same way russian state TV might video a stop oil protest and claim the whole UK is ready to overthrow the govt.
The lady's death was senseless and shocking, and is a solemn reminder of the things we take for granted in the west.
But ultimately: it's their country, their rules, their state run morality police. Much as we don't like it, didn't the UK get the whole telling other places how to run out of it's system 100 years ago?
Rivenink said:
Women in the UK have the right to choose; at least legally so. Many people choose to wear religious clothing and are free to do so.
While undoubtedly some people do not get a 'choice' because of family and social pressure and that could be described as opressive, in the eyes of the law, they have the freedom to choose.
Iran is oppressive because the Government enforces adherence to a religious dresscode. There is no freedom.
Indeed, to quote a conversion with a former colleague, "my wife is free to choose to wear whatever she likes", "what if she chose to wear nothing?", "then she'd be a sinner".While undoubtedly some people do not get a 'choice' because of family and social pressure and that could be described as opressive, in the eyes of the law, they have the freedom to choose.
Iran is oppressive because the Government enforces adherence to a religious dresscode. There is no freedom.
The shutting off of the intenet is a big deal, they don't want people organising or the outside world seeing what's going on. Good luck to them I say.
Four Litre said:
I find it ironic that the women in Iran are burning their head scarves as a sign of oppression. Here in the UK people make out that women wearing a head scarf is a symbol of cultural identity in a nicey nice way..
Personally I know which one I believe.
I think you're making a false comparison. Personally I know which one I believe.
Yes, you get people in Muslim culture who want to (and often can) force women to dress in a certain way.
On the other hand, you get people here who want to force women NOT to dress in a certain way. Personally I don't care whether this group are doing it because they think they're saving women from oppression or because they want to force people to integrate into what they perceive to be British society, I still find them as reprehensible as the previous group.
The society I want to live in is one where everyone is entitled to wear whatever they want (within certain minimum standards of decency, mainly keeping genitals covered) whenever they want, with the focus on it being what THEY want, not what anyone else wants FOR them.
Ian Geary said:
I recall a year or so ago, when the European media was reporting heavily on the Navalny protests/goings on.
A friend who works studying security/politics told me it was really a fringe movement in Russia, and not at all getting wide support.
The reason European media reported it so vigorously was because it served our political agenda.
So part of me wonders to what extent this protest is widespread and represents a real sea change moment? Or is just small, isolated incidents being played up.
In the same way russian state TV might video a stop oil protest and claim the whole UK is ready to overthrow the govt.
The lady's death was senseless and shocking, and is a solemn reminder of the things we take for granted in the west.
But ultimately: it's their country, their rules, their state run morality police. Much as we don't like it, didn't the UK get the whole telling other places how to run out of it's system 100 years ago?
There didn't seem to be that much coverage of this on the BBC, which makes me wonder if it's as you say a very small set of protests, or something bigger that's not being covered well...A friend who works studying security/politics told me it was really a fringe movement in Russia, and not at all getting wide support.
The reason European media reported it so vigorously was because it served our political agenda.
So part of me wonders to what extent this protest is widespread and represents a real sea change moment? Or is just small, isolated incidents being played up.
In the same way russian state TV might video a stop oil protest and claim the whole UK is ready to overthrow the govt.
The lady's death was senseless and shocking, and is a solemn reminder of the things we take for granted in the west.
But ultimately: it's their country, their rules, their state run morality police. Much as we don't like it, didn't the UK get the whole telling other places how to run out of it's system 100 years ago?
Kermit power said:
Four Litre said:
I find it ironic that the women in Iran are burning their head scarves as a sign of oppression. Here in the UK people make out that women wearing a head scarf is a symbol of cultural identity in a nicey nice way..
Personally I know which one I believe.
I think you're making a false comparison. Personally I know which one I believe.
Yes, you get people in Muslim culture who want to (and often can) force women to dress in a certain way.
On the other hand, you get people here who want to force women NOT to dress in a certain way. Personally I don't care whether this group are doing it because they think they're saving women from oppression or because they want to force people to integrate into what they perceive to be British society, I still find them as reprehensible as the previous group.
The society I want to live in is one where everyone is entitled to wear whatever they want (within certain minimum standards of decency, mainly keeping genitals covered) whenever they want, with the focus on it being what THEY want, not what anyone else wants FOR them.
It isn't a matter of "want", because a lot of Muslim women in the UK and around the World do not get a choice - because men dictate what they should do.
Kermit power said:
I think you're making a false comparison.
Yes, you get people in Muslim culture who want to (and often can) force women to dress in a certain way.
On the other hand, you get people here who want to force women NOT to dress in a certain way. Personally I don't care whether this group are doing it because they think they're saving women from oppression or because they want to force people to integrate into what they perceive to be British society, I still find them as reprehensible as the previous group.
The society I want to live in is one where everyone is entitled to wear whatever they want (within certain minimum standards of decency, mainly keeping genitals covered) whenever they want, with the focus on it being what THEY want, not what anyone else wants FOR them.
There's absolutely no equivalence between the two.Yes, you get people in Muslim culture who want to (and often can) force women to dress in a certain way.
On the other hand, you get people here who want to force women NOT to dress in a certain way. Personally I don't care whether this group are doing it because they think they're saving women from oppression or because they want to force people to integrate into what they perceive to be British society, I still find them as reprehensible as the previous group.
The society I want to live in is one where everyone is entitled to wear whatever they want (within certain minimum standards of decency, mainly keeping genitals covered) whenever they want, with the focus on it being what THEY want, not what anyone else wants FOR them.
Which UK government agency is dragging women from the streets, imprisoning them and beating them, sometimes to death, in order to subjugate them?
andyA700 said:
I am married to an Iranian born woman, we have been together for over thirty years. The better half of my family live in Iran. When any of my female relations visit us or go outside of Iran, they do not wear hijab, they wear Western style clothes. However, there is still a lot of control and abuse of Muslim women going on in the UK, where they are forced to wear hijab, forbidden to work, forbidden to socialise with non Muslim people.
It isn't a matter of "want", because a lot of Muslim women in the UK and around the World do not get a choice - because men dictate what they should do.
No argument there, which is why I made a point of saying it's only a freedom if it's really an individual choice. It isn't a matter of "want", because a lot of Muslim women in the UK and around the World do not get a choice - because men dictate what they should do.
I don't, though, see any moral difference between the Iranian authorities forcing women to wear a hijab and the French authorities forcing them not to.
Blib said:
There's absolutely no equivalence between the two.
Which UK government agency is dragging women from the streets, imprisoning them and beating them, sometimes to death, in order to subjugate them?
None in the UK, and long may it continue, but it is a regular populist theme. Which UK government agency is dragging women from the streets, imprisoning them and beating them, sometimes to death, in order to subjugate them?
The French government have banned the veil though, and I find it an unacceptable infringement of civil liberty.
The barbarism with which regimes such as Iran enforce their laws is, of course, horrific in comparison to the West, but that is a different matter to the ethical validity of the law in the first place.
Kermit power said:
I don't, though, see any moral difference between the Iranian authorities forcing women to wear a hijab and the French authorities forcing them not to.
While I get your point, I'm not sure I can agree that a cultural mindset that can lead to things like honor killings and FGM can be compared to anything happening in France. Edited by Type R Tom on Friday 23 September 10:08
4Q said:
Vasco said:
What is the penalty for a muslim woman not wearing a hijab on the streets of the UK ?
In some cases getting beaten by her father, brothers & uncles. There are estimated to be around 12-15 'honour killings' in the UK every year.
Type R Tom said:
Kermit power said:
I don't, though, see any moral difference between the Iranian authorities forcing women to wear a hijab and the French authorities forcing them not to.
While I get your point, I'm not sure I can agree that a cultural mindset that can lead to things like honor killings and FGM can be compared to anything happening in France. Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff