Is this really the state of our schools?
Discussion
This week, through work I stepped foot in the primary school I went to almost 30 years ago. At the time, the school was brand new. A completely new building, state of the art, architecturally designed and fancy af. No cost had been spared. A brick and steel construction with a glass front, tinted aluminium framed windows, a balcony circling the entire first floor with wood and stainless balustrade. A roof lantern spanning the entire length of the building with electrically actuated sections acting as vents. Many more details that would still be impressive to this day.
Yet now... I look at it and wonder what the hell has happened. It just looks dilapidated. As if it's a building that has had minimal maintenance over the years. Ceilings covered in tape, staples and holes. Bits of board covering holes in walls. Suspended ceilings with bits missing. Cracks in walls that have been badly filled. External wood finishes that look like they haven't been painted or varnished for 10+ years. Wooden benches that look almost rotten. A sports hall floor that was stripped and sealed every term that now looks like it hasn't been tended to for years. Chairs with legs that the paint has worn off leaving bare metal on show. I could go on.
The contractor I'm working with tells me that this is one of the better ones. Is this really the state of our schools these days? It's saddening to see what has happened to what was once such a lovely building. And it breaks my heart to think that children and adults alike learn and work in such a place.
You hear of teachers being poorly paid and cutbacks etc, but you don't hear about the wider effects of this. The private sector isn't like this at all. The government and local authorities squander so much money on trivial things, yet the things that matter aren't given a second thought. Why do we stand for it?
Yet now... I look at it and wonder what the hell has happened. It just looks dilapidated. As if it's a building that has had minimal maintenance over the years. Ceilings covered in tape, staples and holes. Bits of board covering holes in walls. Suspended ceilings with bits missing. Cracks in walls that have been badly filled. External wood finishes that look like they haven't been painted or varnished for 10+ years. Wooden benches that look almost rotten. A sports hall floor that was stripped and sealed every term that now looks like it hasn't been tended to for years. Chairs with legs that the paint has worn off leaving bare metal on show. I could go on.
The contractor I'm working with tells me that this is one of the better ones. Is this really the state of our schools these days? It's saddening to see what has happened to what was once such a lovely building. And it breaks my heart to think that children and adults alike learn and work in such a place.
You hear of teachers being poorly paid and cutbacks etc, but you don't hear about the wider effects of this. The private sector isn't like this at all. The government and local authorities squander so much money on trivial things, yet the things that matter aren't given a second thought. Why do we stand for it?
goldar said:
This week, through work I stepped foot in the primary school I went to almost 30 years ago. At the time, the school was brand new. A completely new building, state of the art, architecturally designed and fancy af. No cost had been spared. A brick and steel construction with a glass front, tinted aluminium framed windows, a balcony circling the entire first floor with wood and stainless balustrade.
Sounds like an expensive vanity project school, excessively expensive to maintain, no wonder it's like that now.FourWheelDrift said:
Sounds like an expensive vanity project school, excessively expensive to maintain, no wonder it's like that now.
Before its time if it was 30 years ago as well. There isn't a Primary school from the 80's and early 90's like that anywhere near here - that's not saying they don't exist thoughSince then, devolved maintenance costs given to the school away from LA's (schools tend to spend that anything but, falling back on the LA when crap happens) combined with schools built to a budget based on bums on seats not longevity
Do schools not have caretakers anymore?
I'm not that old at 33 but all my schools had full time caretakers, most with an on site house who's responsibility it was to maintain the building and it's contents. Your typical one man band handyman who can turn his hand to most tasks doing smaller stuff in term time with bigger jobs being carried out in the holidays.
Can only assume either this is no longer a thing or at least not a thing at this school...?
I'm not that old at 33 but all my schools had full time caretakers, most with an on site house who's responsibility it was to maintain the building and it's contents. Your typical one man band handyman who can turn his hand to most tasks doing smaller stuff in term time with bigger jobs being carried out in the holidays.
Can only assume either this is no longer a thing or at least not a thing at this school...?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-10682980.amp
Q&A: Building Schools for the Future
Updated 14 June 2011
In July 2010, Education Secretary Michael Gove controversially axed the national school rebuilding programme for England, established by the Labour government, saying it was wasteful and bureaucratic. The BBC News Website looks at the scheme and the coalition's future plans for school building.
What was Building Schools for the Future?
Dubbed the biggest school building programme since Victorian times, Building Schools for the Future was Labour's £55bn grand plan to rebuild every secondary school in England.
Announced by Tony Blair in 2004, the programme was about much more than replacing classrooms with leaking roofs or buildings with crumbling brickwork. It was about initiating a step-change in children's education.
Not only were pupils to be provided with inspirational buildings that made them feel valued and worthwhile, but they were to be given access to new ways of learning fit for the 21st Century
This involved state of the art computer technology and, as such, required a change from the lay-out of a traditional school.
Instead of sitting in a class, filled with a line of wooden desks facing a teacher firmly ensconced in front of a chalk board, they might perch in wi-fi enabled "learning hubs", using their own laptops to carry out their own independent research.
And for the multi-billion pound investment to be sustainable, the new facilities had to be flexible, as no one could predict what education would be like 50 years ahead.
…
Q&A: Building Schools for the Future
Updated 14 June 2011
In July 2010, Education Secretary Michael Gove controversially axed the national school rebuilding programme for England, established by the Labour government, saying it was wasteful and bureaucratic. The BBC News Website looks at the scheme and the coalition's future plans for school building.
What was Building Schools for the Future?
Dubbed the biggest school building programme since Victorian times, Building Schools for the Future was Labour's £55bn grand plan to rebuild every secondary school in England.
Announced by Tony Blair in 2004, the programme was about much more than replacing classrooms with leaking roofs or buildings with crumbling brickwork. It was about initiating a step-change in children's education.
Not only were pupils to be provided with inspirational buildings that made them feel valued and worthwhile, but they were to be given access to new ways of learning fit for the 21st Century
This involved state of the art computer technology and, as such, required a change from the lay-out of a traditional school.
Instead of sitting in a class, filled with a line of wooden desks facing a teacher firmly ensconced in front of a chalk board, they might perch in wi-fi enabled "learning hubs", using their own laptops to carry out their own independent research.
And for the multi-billion pound investment to be sustainable, the new facilities had to be flexible, as no one could predict what education would be like 50 years ahead.
…
Edited by rover 623gsi on Thursday 1st September 06:39
rover 623gsi said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-10682980.amp
Q&A: Building Schools for the Future
Updated 14 June 2011
In July 2010, Education Secretary Michael Gove controversially axed the national school rebuilding programme for England, established by the Labour government, saying it was wasteful and bureaucratic. The BBC News Website looks at the scheme and the coalition's future plans for school building.
What was Building Schools for the Future?
Dubbed the biggest school building programme since Victorian times, Building Schools for the Future was Labour's £55bn grand plan to rebuild every secondary school in England.
Announced by Tony Blair in 2004, the programme was about much more than replacing classrooms with leaking roofs or buildings with crumbling brickwork. It was about initiating a step-change in children's education.
[b]Not only were pupils to be provided with inspirational buildings that made them feel valued and worthwhile, but they were to be given access to new ways of learning fit for the 21st Century
This involved state of the art computer technology and, as such, required a change from the lay-out of a traditional school.
Instead of sitting in a class, filled with a line of wooden desks facing a teacher firmly ensconced in front of a chalk board, they might perch in wi-fi enabled "learning hubs", using their own laptops to carry out their own independent research.[/b]
And for the multi-billion pound investment to be sustainable, the new facilities had to be flexible, as no one could predict what education would be like 50 years ahead.
…
What a load of expensive bQ&A: Building Schools for the Future
Updated 14 June 2011
In July 2010, Education Secretary Michael Gove controversially axed the national school rebuilding programme for England, established by the Labour government, saying it was wasteful and bureaucratic. The BBC News Website looks at the scheme and the coalition's future plans for school building.
What was Building Schools for the Future?
Dubbed the biggest school building programme since Victorian times, Building Schools for the Future was Labour's £55bn grand plan to rebuild every secondary school in England.
Announced by Tony Blair in 2004, the programme was about much more than replacing classrooms with leaking roofs or buildings with crumbling brickwork. It was about initiating a step-change in children's education.
[b]Not only were pupils to be provided with inspirational buildings that made them feel valued and worthwhile, but they were to be given access to new ways of learning fit for the 21st Century
This involved state of the art computer technology and, as such, required a change from the lay-out of a traditional school.
Instead of sitting in a class, filled with a line of wooden desks facing a teacher firmly ensconced in front of a chalk board, they might perch in wi-fi enabled "learning hubs", using their own laptops to carry out their own independent research.[/b]
And for the multi-billion pound investment to be sustainable, the new facilities had to be flexible, as no one could predict what education would be like 50 years ahead.
…
Edited by rover 623gsi on Thursday 1st September 06:39
ks. I bet the top public schools' teaching is closer to chalkboard than wifi.Spending the money on extra teachers to reduce staff:student ratio would help more than a shiny classroom.
My son attends the same infants school as I did 33 years ago, it is in far better condition than I was there and far better equipped. The high school that he will eventually go to that replaced mine last year is a brand new facility on the same site replacing the existing.
My view is that far more money appears to have been spent on the schools than 30+ years ago. There also seems to be far more staff floating around as well.
My view is that far more money appears to have been spent on the schools than 30+ years ago. There also seems to be far more staff floating around as well.
bobbo89 said:
Do schools not have caretakers anymore?
I'm not that old at 33 but all my schools had full time caretakers, most with an on site house who's responsibility it was to maintain the building and it's contents. Your typical one man band handyman who can turn his hand to most tasks doing smaller stuff in term time with bigger jobs being carried out in the holidays.
Can only assume either this is no longer a thing or at least not a thing at this school...?
The school where my teacher works just has a care taker at the start and end of day to open up. This is to save money of course.I'm not that old at 33 but all my schools had full time caretakers, most with an on site house who's responsibility it was to maintain the building and it's contents. Your typical one man band handyman who can turn his hand to most tasks doing smaller stuff in term time with bigger jobs being carried out in the holidays.
Can only assume either this is no longer a thing or at least not a thing at this school...?
There might be a book with small repairs here and there.
But thinking back to my primary school in the 80s, the caretaker would spend a fair while cleaning the grounds, shifting chairs around, sweeping inside. He never did any deeper maintenance or repair.
That would often be done by contractors over summer.
Anyway, to answer the opening post: yes, this is the impact of reduced real terms spending for a decade.
It was obviously going to happen, and was pointed out, but the country gave Cameron and Osborne a strong mandate to reduce spending, so here we are.
The biggest problem for school budgets is really the high needs funding debacle. But as with a lot of problems, many aren't aware of it unless they become directly involved.
And now schools have an unfunded (but below inflation) payrise to meet, and increasing fuel cost, to absorb from the existing budget for teaching, low level sen, resources, and maintenance.
Bottom line: I don't think the UK makes anywhere near enough GDP to fund the expectations the British have about our country's public services.
goldar said:
The contractor I'm working with tells me that this is one of the better ones. Is this really the state of our schools these days? It's saddening to see what has happened to what was once such a lovely building. And it breaks my heart to think that children and adults alike learn and work in such a place.
Yes. Schools are desperate for every penny. If you find a school that is better it’s most likely because of the PTA and friends of the school getting parents to put money in rather than funding. So schools in wealthy catchment areas do much better.goldar said:
You hear of teachers being poorly paid and cutbacks etc, but you don't hear about the wider effects of this. The private sector isn't like this at all. The government and local authorities squander so much money on trivial things, yet the things that matter aren't given a second thought. Why do we stand for it?
Nothing to do with LAs and everything to do with central government cutting funding. LAs have born the brunt of funding cuts as central government have seen them as an easy target where the LA gets the blame.I went to a well achieving, but not top or expensive public school. It was pretty dilapidated in places.
I guess it depends on the head and PTA support. We looked at several schools recently as my daughter is about to start (tomorrow).
One of the schools looked more run down. But, the head was completely inspiring about education. She said she spent all the money on books and additional staff, and applied to the council for emergency repairs rather than paying for it from her budget. The school was tiny, but in the top 3% for reading achievement.
So a lot of it is down to choice. And I guess a lot of heads don't have property maintenance as a priority (or even skill)
I guess it depends on the head and PTA support. We looked at several schools recently as my daughter is about to start (tomorrow).
One of the schools looked more run down. But, the head was completely inspiring about education. She said she spent all the money on books and additional staff, and applied to the council for emergency repairs rather than paying for it from her budget. The school was tiny, but in the top 3% for reading achievement.
So a lot of it is down to choice. And I guess a lot of heads don't have property maintenance as a priority (or even skill)
I'm a school caretaker. Aside from the ongoing battle keeping up with petty vandalism, there are two major problems with keeping a school working properly: teachers and tech! Teachers love blu-tac, staples and sellotape. Last summer we were tasked with decorating three Reception classrooms amongst other things, it took six days of prep before we could take the lid off a paint tin as there were so many holes to fill, settlement cracks to fill (the school's seven years old), staples to remove, grease marks from blu-tac to remove, holes from where boards are constantly being asked to be moved etc. Six days.
Then there's the tech. We have radiators. You turn them up, you turn them down, you open windows, you close windows (on some stupid chain driven system that invariably goes wrong meaning at least a dozen windows now won't open but you try getting a company out to quote for repairing them), but apparently this isn't the way of the future. We had a new wing built with air handling. Remote control systems that the installation company can control with sim cards monitoring classroom temperatures to remote operate actuators to open and close valves that control air flow and vent opening. Except they're constantly going wrong with valves sticking and needing cleaning, the sim card not working because the operating company forgot to put any money on it, wi-fi signal being poor etc etc.
Having said all that, our school's in pretty good nick. There's not much wrong other than a few windows and fire doors that need sorting, but we're pretty good at keeping on top of everything and despite needy teachers and even needier SLT don't let anyone tell you that it really is the easiest job in the world!
Then there's the tech. We have radiators. You turn them up, you turn them down, you open windows, you close windows (on some stupid chain driven system that invariably goes wrong meaning at least a dozen windows now won't open but you try getting a company out to quote for repairing them), but apparently this isn't the way of the future. We had a new wing built with air handling. Remote control systems that the installation company can control with sim cards monitoring classroom temperatures to remote operate actuators to open and close valves that control air flow and vent opening. Except they're constantly going wrong with valves sticking and needing cleaning, the sim card not working because the operating company forgot to put any money on it, wi-fi signal being poor etc etc.
Having said all that, our school's in pretty good nick. There's not much wrong other than a few windows and fire doors that need sorting, but we're pretty good at keeping on top of everything and despite needy teachers and even needier SLT don't let anyone tell you that it really is the easiest job in the world!
Antony Moxey said:
I'm a school caretaker. Aside from the ongoing battle keeping up with petty vandalism, there are two major problems with keeping a school working properly: teachers and tech! Teachers love blu-tac, staples and sellotape. Last summer we were tasked with decorating three Reception classrooms amongst other things, it took six days of prep before we could take the lid off a paint tin as there were so many holes to fill, settlement cracks to fill (the school's seven years old), staples to remove, grease marks from blu-tac to remove, holes from where boards are constantly being asked to be moved etc. Six days.
Then there's the tech. We have radiators. You turn them up, you turn them down, you open windows, you close windows (on some stupid chain driven system that invariably goes wrong meaning at least a dozen windows now won't open but you try getting a company out to quote for repairing them), but apparently this isn't the way of the future. We had a new wing built with air handling. Remote control systems that the installation company can control with sim cards monitoring classroom temperatures to remote operate actuators to open and close valves that control air flow and vent opening. Except they're constantly going wrong with valves sticking and needing cleaning, the sim card not working because the operating company forgot to put any money on it, wi-fi signal being poor etc etc.
Having said all that, our school's in pretty good nick. There's not much wrong other than a few windows and fire doors that need sorting, but we're pretty good at keeping on top of everything and despite needy teachers and even needier SLT don't let anyone tell you that it really is the easiest job in the world!
You seem to have an attitude I see in a lot of support staff, you might find teachers and by extension the kids a pain in the arse, but without them there is no school and you have no job. Their need for things moving, use of blue tack etc. Is keeping you in work. Then there's the tech. We have radiators. You turn them up, you turn them down, you open windows, you close windows (on some stupid chain driven system that invariably goes wrong meaning at least a dozen windows now won't open but you try getting a company out to quote for repairing them), but apparently this isn't the way of the future. We had a new wing built with air handling. Remote control systems that the installation company can control with sim cards monitoring classroom temperatures to remote operate actuators to open and close valves that control air flow and vent opening. Except they're constantly going wrong with valves sticking and needing cleaning, the sim card not working because the operating company forgot to put any money on it, wi-fi signal being poor etc etc.
Having said all that, our school's in pretty good nick. There's not much wrong other than a few windows and fire doors that need sorting, but we're pretty good at keeping on top of everything and despite needy teachers and even needier SLT don't let anyone tell you that it really is the easiest job in the world!
You may not be the person your post paints you as, but you do come across a bit as "without me this place would fall apart" when in actual fact your only purpose is to facilitate those who do the actual work to be able to shine.
Antony Moxey said:
I'm a school caretaker. Aside from the ongoing battle keeping up with petty vandalism, there are two major problems with keeping a school working properly: teachers and tech! Teachers love blu-tac, staples and sellotape. Last summer we were tasked with decorating three Reception classrooms amongst other things, it took six days of prep before we could take the lid off a paint tin as there were so many holes to fill, settlement cracks to fill (the school's seven years old), staples to remove, grease marks from blu-tac to remove, holes from where boards are constantly being asked to be moved etc. Six days.
Then there's the tech. We have radiators. You turn them up, you turn them down, you open windows, you close windows (on some stupid chain driven system that invariably goes wrong meaning at least a dozen windows now won't open but you try getting a company out to quote for repairing them), but apparently this isn't the way of the future. We had a new wing built with air handling. Remote control systems that the installation company can control with sim cards monitoring classroom temperatures to remote operate actuators to open and close valves that control air flow and vent opening. Except they're constantly going wrong with valves sticking and needing cleaning, the sim card not working because the operating company forgot to put any money on it, wi-fi signal being poor etc etc.
Having said all that, our school's in pretty good nick. There's not much wrong other than a few windows and fire doors that need sorting, but we're pretty good at keeping on top of everything and despite needy teachers and even needier SLT don't let anyone tell you that it really is the easiest job in the world!
This is what i was referring to when I was talking about caretakers. A lot of what the OP posted sounded like it could be sorted with some graft and not a huge amount of money, stuff that if you keep on top of isn't a biggie. Then there's the tech. We have radiators. You turn them up, you turn them down, you open windows, you close windows (on some stupid chain driven system that invariably goes wrong meaning at least a dozen windows now won't open but you try getting a company out to quote for repairing them), but apparently this isn't the way of the future. We had a new wing built with air handling. Remote control systems that the installation company can control with sim cards monitoring classroom temperatures to remote operate actuators to open and close valves that control air flow and vent opening. Except they're constantly going wrong with valves sticking and needing cleaning, the sim card not working because the operating company forgot to put any money on it, wi-fi signal being poor etc etc.
Having said all that, our school's in pretty good nick. There's not much wrong other than a few windows and fire doors that need sorting, but we're pretty good at keeping on top of everything and despite needy teachers and even needier SLT don't let anyone tell you that it really is the easiest job in the world!
The tech stuff sounds like a nightmare, I'm a firm believer in keeping things simple and that stuff just sounds like it adds a level of complexity that requires specialist outside help for when it (regularly it seems) goes wrong.
As for the teachers sticking stuff everywhere, do you not have specific boards in classrooms for them do to this? We used to have these massive boards made of what felt like heavily compacted paper/cardboard that were used for tacking and stapling stuff to.
jules_s said:
Before its time if it was 30 years ago as well. There isn't a Primary school from the 80's and early 90's like that anywhere near here - that's not saying they don't exist though
Since then, devolved maintenance costs given to the school away from LA's (schools tend to spend that anything but, falling back on the LA when crap happens) combined with schools built to a budget based on bums on seats not longevity
My primary was like that. The old one was ancient and supplemented by portacabins dotted around. The new one was pyramid shoed, had solar heated water and actuated venting on the roof. Its opening was delayedas local scum stole loads to lead from the roof IIRC.Since then, devolved maintenance costs given to the school away from LA's (schools tend to spend that anything but, falling back on the LA when crap happens) combined with schools built to a budget based on bums on seats not longevity
wildoliver said:
Antony Moxey said:
I'm a school caretaker. Aside from the ongoing battle keeping up with petty vandalism, there are two major problems with keeping a school working properly: teachers and tech! Teachers love blu-tac, staples and sellotape. Last summer we were tasked with decorating three Reception classrooms amongst other things, it took six days of prep before we could take the lid off a paint tin as there were so many holes to fill, settlement cracks to fill (the school's seven years old), staples to remove, grease marks from blu-tac to remove, holes from where boards are constantly being asked to be moved etc. Six days.
Then there's the tech. We have radiators. You turn them up, you turn them down, you open windows, you close windows (on some stupid chain driven system that invariably goes wrong meaning at least a dozen windows now won't open but you try getting a company out to quote for repairing them), but apparently this isn't the way of the future. We had a new wing built with air handling. Remote control systems that the installation company can control with sim cards monitoring classroom temperatures to remote operate actuators to open and close valves that control air flow and vent opening. Except they're constantly going wrong with valves sticking and needing cleaning, the sim card not working because the operating company forgot to put any money on it, wi-fi signal being poor etc etc.
Having said all that, our school's in pretty good nick. There's not much wrong other than a few windows and fire doors that need sorting, but we're pretty good at keeping on top of everything and despite needy teachers and even needier SLT don't let anyone tell you that it really is the easiest job in the world!
You seem to have an attitude I see in a lot of support staff, you might find teachers and by extension the kids a pain in the arse, but without them there is no school and you have no job. Their need for things moving, use of blue tack etc. Is keeping you in work. Then there's the tech. We have radiators. You turn them up, you turn them down, you open windows, you close windows (on some stupid chain driven system that invariably goes wrong meaning at least a dozen windows now won't open but you try getting a company out to quote for repairing them), but apparently this isn't the way of the future. We had a new wing built with air handling. Remote control systems that the installation company can control with sim cards monitoring classroom temperatures to remote operate actuators to open and close valves that control air flow and vent opening. Except they're constantly going wrong with valves sticking and needing cleaning, the sim card not working because the operating company forgot to put any money on it, wi-fi signal being poor etc etc.
Having said all that, our school's in pretty good nick. There's not much wrong other than a few windows and fire doors that need sorting, but we're pretty good at keeping on top of everything and despite needy teachers and even needier SLT don't let anyone tell you that it really is the easiest job in the world!
You may not be the person your post paints you as, but you do come across a bit as "without me this place would fall apart" when in actual fact your only purpose is to facilitate those who do the actual work to be able to shine.
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