Is democracy always worth it?

[Kermit power]

At a national level, I'm inclined to agree with Churchill's view of democracy being the worst form of government apart from all the others we've tried, even when it's only the quasi-democracy of our FPTP system.

At the local level, however, we have a by-election coming up soon!

This is an election for a single district Councillor in a single ward. We're getting leaflets through the door about it, the council have had to go to the hassle and expense of sending out polling cards, setting up polling stations, doing a count and everything else that goes with it.

WHY THE HELL ARE THEY BOTHERING???

This isn't the only Councillor for the Ward, so we're not being left unrepresented, and the outcome of the vote will have absolutely zero effect on any policy setting or anything else that might impact on me.

Belgium managed to run their entire country pretty successfully without a government for a couple of years recently, so what's so special about an English District Councillor that their election couldn't wait until the next broader election? The only thing that would happen is that the council would save a bit of money at a time where they've not got a lot to start with!

[BikeBikeBIke]

Polling cards are optional, not legally required, your council need to stop that right away, total waste of money.

....and yeah, I was luke warm on democracy but recent events have shown how utterly essential it is.

Edited by BikeBikeBIke on Sunday 19th June 19:29

[Johnnytheboy]

I'd rather have some say in how things are run.

Most of the really dumb stuff done by councils seems to be at the behest of the salaried staff, somewhat held in check by the elected officials.

[Kermit power]

Johnnytheboy said:

I'd rather have some say in how things are run.

Most of the really dumb stuff done by councils seems to be at the behest of the salaried staff, somewhat held in check by the elected officials.

I don't disagree, I'm just not convinced by the value of having a standalone election now rather than in a few months, when we've already got a couple of other councillors to work for us.

[Jenny Tailor]

The Chinese are a double edged sword here.

With a very clear vision - what you can achieve as a country in a very short period of time.
And how badly it can treat the population.



If only there was some way to deliver the first without the second.

[Donbot]

Jenny Tailor said:

The Chinese are a double edged sword here.

With a very clear vision - what you can achieve as a country in a very short period of time.
And how badly it can treat the population.



If only there was some way to deliver the first without the second.

That's like saying Nazi Germany achieved a lot in a short period of time with a clear vision.

The Japenese economic miricle happened without murdering their own population.

[sunbeam alpine]

Kermit power said:

Belgium managed to run their entire country pretty successfully without a government for a couple of years recently...

Indeed, and Belgium would now have an extreme right-wing government if the 2 parties with the largest individual number of votes had been able to persuade just one other party to join them in forming a government.

As it is we have a "coalition of the losers" - a grouping of parties - who indeed represent a higher total percentage of the votes - but whose views are so at variance with each other that effective government is pretty much impossible.

I'm genuinely not convinced that this is a "better" form of democracy. What I do know is that it isn't working.

Edited by sunbeam alpine on Sunday 19th June 20:25

[TwigtheWonderkid]

The benefit of democracy is that it allows everyone to have a hand in fking up the country and opposed to a dictator doing it on his own.

[Jenny Tailor]

Donbot said:

Jenny Tailor said:

The Chinese are a double edged sword here.

With a very clear vision - what you can achieve as a country in a very short period of time.
And how badly it can treat the population.



If only there was some way to deliver the first without the second.

That's like saying Nazi Germany achieved a lot in a short period of time with a clear vision.

The Japenese economic miricle happened without murdering their own population.

Just for Donbot.....
Exactly what I said.. Let me try again ....

When there is a very clear vision and the country is behind it........it can do amazing things.
BUT... it can very much be for the benefit or the detriment to the population. ( and other stakeholders )

Not sure there is a debate here.

Is there?

[Jasandjules]

No the best approach is a dictatorship. Just as long as I am the dictator so can make the changes I want..........

[colin_p]

Is it worth it?

Yes, but only if is accessible and a once every four years your vote makes sod all difference is not accessible.

More direct democracy would be something I'd like to see, with referendums for everything important.

The Great British public have an uncanny knack of knowing what is best, if they are given the opportunity to vote on it.

Edited by colin_p on Sunday 19th June 21:00

[Donbot]

Jenny Tailor said:

Donbot said:

Jenny Tailor said:

The Chinese are a double edged sword here.

With a very clear vision - what you can achieve as a country in a very short period of time.
And how badly it can treat the population.



If only there was some way to deliver the first without the second.

That's like saying Nazi Germany achieved a lot in a short period of time with a clear vision.

The Japenese economic miricle happened without murdering their own population.

Just for Donbot.....
Exactly what I said.. Let me try again ....

When there is a very clear vision and the country is behind it........it can do amazing things.
BUT... it can very much be for the benefit or the detriment to the population. ( and other stakeholders )

Not sure there is a debate here.

Is there?

There isn't a debate. There is no need for a dictatorship to achieve anything.

[Jenny Tailor]

Donbot said:

Jenny Tailor said:

Donbot said:

Jenny Tailor said:

The Chinese are a double edged sword here.

With a very clear vision - what you can achieve as a country in a very short period of time.
And how badly it can treat the population.



If only there was some way to deliver the first without the second.

That's like saying Nazi Germany achieved a lot in a short period of time with a clear vision.

The Japenese economic miricle happened without murdering their own population.

Just for Donbot.....
Exactly what I said.. Let me try again ....

When there is a very clear vision and the country is behind it........it can do amazing things.
BUT... it can very much be for the benefit or the detriment to the population. ( and other stakeholders )

Not sure there is a debate here.

Is there?

There isn't a debate. There is no need for a dictatorship to achieve anything.

The Chinese have come from a vitual backwater in 60- 70 odd years.....to a major world power.

Just imagine how other countries can perform - if the political party bickering about jack st bks was negated - and just focused on doing the best for the country.

That is my point.

[Donbot]

Jenny Tailor said:

Donbot said:

Jenny Tailor said:

Donbot said:

Jenny Tailor said:

The Chinese are a double edged sword here.

With a very clear vision - what you can achieve as a country in a very short period of time.
And how badly it can treat the population.



If only there was some way to deliver the first without the second.

That's like saying Nazi Germany achieved a lot in a short period of time with a clear vision.

The Japenese economic miricle happened without murdering their own population.

Just for Donbot.....
Exactly what I said.. Let me try again ....

When there is a very clear vision and the country is behind it........it can do amazing things.
BUT... it can very much be for the benefit or the detriment to the population. ( and other stakeholders )

Not sure there is a debate here.

Is there?

There isn't a debate. There is no need for a dictatorship to achieve anything.

The Chinese have come from a vitual backwater in 60- 70 odd years.....to a major world power.

Just imagine how other countries can perform - if the political party bickering about jack st bks was negated - and just focused on doing the best for the country.

That is my point.

Japan
Korea
Taiwan

The bullst bickering seems ok to me.

[Jenny Tailor]

Let's post numbers.
Not percentages.
Not just countries.
Just cold hard fact numbers.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/China-overtakes-U....
I'm sure other sources are available.

While many other countries are doing well. China came from a complete backwater to this..... in my lifetime.

[Donbot]

Jenny Tailor said:

Let's post numbers.
Not percentages.
Not just countries.
Just cold hard fact numbers.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/China-overtakes-U....
I'm sure other sources are available.

While many other countries are doing well. China came from a complete backwater to this..... in my lifetime.

And they did that with a more liberal globalist approach. The opposite of what they are doing now.

[Jenny Tailor]

Donbot said:

Jenny Tailor said:

Let's post numbers.
Not percentages.
Not just countries.
Just cold hard fact numbers.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/China-overtakes-U....
I'm sure other sources are available.

While many other countries are doing well. China came from a complete backwater to this..... in my lifetime.

And they did that with a more liberal globalist approach. The opposite of what they are doing now.

Are you really reading my posts?
Can you do that with a fresh set of eyes?
This might be easier in a face to face conversation.
Please try again.

We are agreeing violently - but I don't think you are seeing it.

I am saying the potential for western ( or should it be democratic? ) countries to excel would be superior if it wasnt for the waste of the that counties opposition parties (of whatever colour) to argue against the Govt ( of whatever colour) as a point of just being blood awkward.

I can't spell it out any clearer. Sorry.

[sunbeam alpine]

Jenny Tailor said:

I am saying the potential for western ( or should it be democratic? ) countries to excel would be superior if it wasnt for the waste of the that counties opposition parties (of whatever colour) to argue against the Govt ( of whatever colour) as a point of just being blood awkward.

I can't spell it out any clearer. Sorry.

What the f*** is Boris Johnson's excuse then?

[Teddy Lop]

Jenny Tailor said:

Let's post numbers.
Not percentages.
Not just countries.
Just cold hard fact numbers.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/China-overtakes-U....
I'm sure other sources are available.

While many other countries are doing well. China came from a complete backwater to this..... in my lifetime.

And what made a country with such rich history and culture a "complete backwater" in the first place? The vast net worth has come about since they were invited to participate in the western model in the anticipation the wests liberal driven economic success would rub off in all ways. It didn't.

China is basically run as the world's biggest syndicate now; the only people who think of that as effective are either stunningly ill informed or currently/imagining they'll be part of the small beneficiary class (newsflash, that vast net worth is really fking poorly spread)

I guess similar to all the communist regimes then!

[Jenny Tailor]

sunbeam alpine said:

Jenny Tailor said:

I am saying the potential for western ( or should it be democratic? ) countries to excel would be superior if it wasnt for the waste of the that counties opposition parties (of whatever colour) to argue against the Govt ( of whatever colour) as a point of just being blood awkward.

I can't spell it out any clearer. Sorry.

What the f*** is Boris Johnson's excuse then?

For what?

Our electorate has decided to leave the EU ( for better or worse ).


What has Boris Govt done well?
Instead of what the EU did - pussyfooting about the price of the vaccine..... he just bought Covid vaccines, help build factories to produce said vaccine - and innoculate our population.
Bought a ton of other Covid vaccines of various varieties.
Gave loads of vaccine away to other countries.

Kept the income of almost the entire population of the country coming in during Covid.
( yes - we will have to pay it back over our lifetimes. But it is unprecidented )

Now - there are a mega load of st storms. Too many to post. But a special mention goes to "Parties"

Depending on your politics - you take your view.

IMO - The first job of Govt is to protect your population.
And in the big picture of things - he nailed that one.
( Other associated things... eg PPE - less so. )

But. I bet you took your vaccinations.


On a side note:
Sadly - I think Covid is going to be with us permanently.
It's going to be yearly vaccinations.



EDIT: I should add.

Will he survive?
I don't think so.
Chancellor is also out - I get we need Non Doms in our country - but.... not when they are that close to making policy.


I remember when Thatcher came in.
She was the right leader for the time to solve the problems of that time.
Overstayed her welcome. Didn't realise her time was gone.

We are at that stage with Boris.

Edited by Jenny Tailor on Sunday 19th June 21:23