The NHS is bad value for money
Discussion
That’s my assertion. I have no health care knowledge other than as a dissatisfied customer. I can’t hardly get to see a doctor; instead I have to be triaged (wtf is that) by some old bag on the phone when I eventually get through. When I do get to see one I don’t really get good treatment - they always try to dissuade you that treatment is necessary not because it isn’t but because they don’t want to incur costs (in my non-medical opinion). I could give examples but I’m sure we all have our own. Any skin complaint has hydrocortisone cream as the solution.
When taking offspring for some spinal checks (few occasions we were there) & was pre-covid (so no excuses) there were loads of workers hanging around the back offices with virtually no patients being seen - this dept is all appointment only. Looked like a right cushy number.
I’m also including dentistry. I’ve had to pay over 400 quid recently for 3 fillings to the same dentist who would do the work on nhs, but he has no nhs places. Fortunately I can afford it I suppose. Plus my teenage offspring of course doesn’t fit within the requires braces parameters (isn’t bad enough even though they are bad) so apparently I’ve got to spend approx £3k on orthodontist stuff.
Quick Comparison: Germany vs uk - they spend 11% gdp we spend 10%
Yet in Germany “…patients get access to care which is so rapid that national waiting data is not collected.“
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38899811
Also
“doctor density in Germany is 4.3 doctors per 1,000 inhabitants, in the UK on average only 2.9 doctors provide care for 1,000 inhabitants“
“British hospitals there are only 6.6 beds per 100,000 inhabitants - in Germany, by contrast, there are 29.2 beds”.
https://www.ottonova.de/en/expat-guide/health-syst...
I know some people will have had great treatment and had a heart transplant or whatever, but for the majority of day to day ailments I think most people have a poor experience and hence I posit they do not provide good value for money. Are we being shafted?
When taking offspring for some spinal checks (few occasions we were there) & was pre-covid (so no excuses) there were loads of workers hanging around the back offices with virtually no patients being seen - this dept is all appointment only. Looked like a right cushy number.
I’m also including dentistry. I’ve had to pay over 400 quid recently for 3 fillings to the same dentist who would do the work on nhs, but he has no nhs places. Fortunately I can afford it I suppose. Plus my teenage offspring of course doesn’t fit within the requires braces parameters (isn’t bad enough even though they are bad) so apparently I’ve got to spend approx £3k on orthodontist stuff.
Quick Comparison: Germany vs uk - they spend 11% gdp we spend 10%
Yet in Germany “…patients get access to care which is so rapid that national waiting data is not collected.“
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38899811
Also
“doctor density in Germany is 4.3 doctors per 1,000 inhabitants, in the UK on average only 2.9 doctors provide care for 1,000 inhabitants“
“British hospitals there are only 6.6 beds per 100,000 inhabitants - in Germany, by contrast, there are 29.2 beds”.
https://www.ottonova.de/en/expat-guide/health-syst...
I know some people will have had great treatment and had a heart transplant or whatever, but for the majority of day to day ailments I think most people have a poor experience and hence I posit they do not provide good value for money. Are we being shafted?
CoolHands said:
Quick Comparison: Germany vs uk - they spend 11% gdp we spend 10%
Yet in Germany “…patients get access to care which is so rapid that national waiting data is not collected.“
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38899811
But German GDP/ person is 20-25% higher than UK. For us to spend the same per person on health, UK would need to be @ 13.5% of GDP. So, not quite apples to apples - they spend more than 30% more per person on health care than we do.Yet in Germany “…patients get access to care which is so rapid that national waiting data is not collected.“
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38899811
https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/germa...
According to this site - German govt health expenditure per person - 4,881 USD, UK 3,064, so a massive 60% difference (the UK figures are 2017 though vs German 2020, but still, the point remains, they have a significantly higher budget/ person than the UK)
Edited by wisbech on Sunday 5th June 00:57
wisbech said:
CoolHands said:
Quick Comparison: Germany vs uk - they spend 11% gdp we spend 10%
Yet in Germany “…patients get access to care which is so rapid that national waiting data is not collected.“
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38899811
But German GDP/ person is 20-25% higher than UK. For us to spend the same per person on health, UK would need to be @ 13.5% of GDP. So, not quite apples to apples - they spend more than 30% more per person on health care than we do.Yet in Germany “…patients get access to care which is so rapid that national waiting data is not collected.“
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38899811
https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/germa...
According to this site - German govt health expenditure per person - 4,881 USD, UK 3,064, so a massive 60% difference (the UK figures are 2017 though vs German 2020, but still, the point remains, they have a significantly higher budget/ person than the UK)
Edited by wisbech on Sunday 5th June 00:57
The problem is that the money invested is to fix “potholes” I instead of well thought out and properly built “roads”.
What I mean is that the NHS should have invested in more modern facilities, more beds, etc and more importantly more doctors/staff in the last 30-40 years. It was/is run on knife edge of being able to deliver with minimal capacity if demand surges.
We don’t train enough doctors, nurses, dentists, etc then no matter what you can’t deliver a good service.
I agree with you, it’s poor value at present but this is mostly due to the poor management, lack of infrastructure investment and lack of people to do the job. Add to this a mentality of free so I am going to see the doctor for things so trivial that a doctor knowledge is not needed. Very wasteful resources.
I know a lot of healthcare workers, including doctors, surgeons, etc. none of them have a cushy day at work. Quite the opposite and some start to do more private because it’s not worth it the excessive workloads, etc to the rate of pay. Actually it’s more the shambles of it all than the rate of pay that make them think of doing less NHS than private. I can’t blame them really.
What I mean is that the NHS should have invested in more modern facilities, more beds, etc and more importantly more doctors/staff in the last 30-40 years. It was/is run on knife edge of being able to deliver with minimal capacity if demand surges.
We don’t train enough doctors, nurses, dentists, etc then no matter what you can’t deliver a good service.
I agree with you, it’s poor value at present but this is mostly due to the poor management, lack of infrastructure investment and lack of people to do the job. Add to this a mentality of free so I am going to see the doctor for things so trivial that a doctor knowledge is not needed. Very wasteful resources.
I know a lot of healthcare workers, including doctors, surgeons, etc. none of them have a cushy day at work. Quite the opposite and some start to do more private because it’s not worth it the excessive workloads, etc to the rate of pay. Actually it’s more the shambles of it all than the rate of pay that make them think of doing less NHS than private. I can’t blame them really.
CrgT16 said:
The problem is that the money invested is to fix “potholes” I instead of well thought out and properly built “roads”.
What I mean is that the NHS should have invested in more modern facilities, more beds, etc and more importantly more doctors/staff in the last 30-40 years. It was/is run on knife edge of being able to deliver with minimal capacity if demand surges.
We don’t train enough doctors, nurses, dentists, etc then no matter what you can’t deliver a good service.
I agree with you, it’s poor value at present but this is mostly due to the poor management, lack of infrastructure investment and lack of people to do the job. Add to this a mentality of free so I am going to see the doctor for things so trivial that a doctor knowledge is not needed. Very wasteful resources.
I know a lot of healthcare workers, including doctors, surgeons, etc. none of them have a cushy day at work. Quite the opposite and some start to do more private because it’s not worth it the excessive workloads, etc to the rate of pay. Actually it’s more the shambles of it all than the rate of pay that make them think of doing less NHS than private. I can’t blame them really.
Seems it trains lots of people who then promptly bugger off to Dubai , Australia etc or the private sector, What I mean is that the NHS should have invested in more modern facilities, more beds, etc and more importantly more doctors/staff in the last 30-40 years. It was/is run on knife edge of being able to deliver with minimal capacity if demand surges.
We don’t train enough doctors, nurses, dentists, etc then no matter what you can’t deliver a good service.
I agree with you, it’s poor value at present but this is mostly due to the poor management, lack of infrastructure investment and lack of people to do the job. Add to this a mentality of free so I am going to see the doctor for things so trivial that a doctor knowledge is not needed. Very wasteful resources.
I know a lot of healthcare workers, including doctors, surgeons, etc. none of them have a cushy day at work. Quite the opposite and some start to do more private because it’s not worth it the excessive workloads, etc to the rate of pay. Actually it’s more the shambles of it all than the rate of pay that make them think of doing less NHS than private. I can’t blame them really.
This is not intended to be a political post.
Waiting’s times have never been higher - the rise correlates with the period of austerity, additionally a circa 8% population growth over the same period.
A little more money on significantly better management and leadership could perhaps help.
Waiting’s times have never been higher - the rise correlates with the period of austerity, additionally a circa 8% population growth over the same period.
A little more money on significantly better management and leadership could perhaps help.
I'm being treated by the NHS for a significant diagnosis at the moment. I've got no complaints. The personnel have been superb. The treatment has been smooth. I have been kept informed.
Like the OP, I have no idea if the doctors surgeries are cushy numbers. I do know that hydrocortisone cream was an effective treatment for a skin complaint I had. I have regular blood test and other examinations that have highlighted particular problems, outside of the one I'm being treated for.
Dentistry has been run down by way of government regulations, particularly about how much money they receive. If a private dentist also has NHS patients, it is virtually pro-bono. It is a deliberate policy. Whatever changes this government puts forward for health service delivery, dentistry will not be targeted.
There are two possible simple, straightforward solutions to the problems the NHS has: take the running of it out of the hands of government, or pass a law than stops MPs and their families using private health care. The latter is an overnight solution for schools as well.
I find it difficult to believe that there is someone who does not know what triage is. I'm not sure thinking of a receptionist as an old bag helps your situation.
The problem besetting the health system in this country is political attitudes towards it. There are two camps. They will never meet.
Like the OP, I have no idea if the doctors surgeries are cushy numbers. I do know that hydrocortisone cream was an effective treatment for a skin complaint I had. I have regular blood test and other examinations that have highlighted particular problems, outside of the one I'm being treated for.
Dentistry has been run down by way of government regulations, particularly about how much money they receive. If a private dentist also has NHS patients, it is virtually pro-bono. It is a deliberate policy. Whatever changes this government puts forward for health service delivery, dentistry will not be targeted.
There are two possible simple, straightforward solutions to the problems the NHS has: take the running of it out of the hands of government, or pass a law than stops MPs and their families using private health care. The latter is an overnight solution for schools as well.
I find it difficult to believe that there is someone who does not know what triage is. I'm not sure thinking of a receptionist as an old bag helps your situation.
The problem besetting the health system in this country is political attitudes towards it. There are two camps. They will never meet.
wisbech said:
CoolHands said:
Quick Comparison: Germany vs uk - they spend 11% gdp we spend 10%
Yet in Germany “…patients get access to care which is so rapid that national waiting data is not collected.“
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38899811
But German GDP/ person is 20-25% higher than UK. For us to spend the same per person on health, UK would need to be @ 13.5% of GDP. So, not quite apples to apples - they spend more than 30% more per person on health care than we do.Yet in Germany “…patients get access to care which is so rapid that national waiting data is not collected.“
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38899811
https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/germa...
According to this site - German govt health expenditure per person - 4,881 USD, UK 3,064, so a massive 60% difference (the UK figures are 2017 though vs German 2020, but still, the point remains, they have a significantly higher budget/ person than the UK)
Edited by wisbech on Sunday 5th June 00:57
FWIW everyone who knows friends or family who work in the NHS know that the waste and inefficiency is off the scale. Re admin contractors (permanent) at double the cost of regular staff, one health trust paying three times another for surgical gloves, booking entire private facilities out for Covid patients that were never used etc etc
It wouldn’t be politically possible for the tories to say it, but if Labour proposed improving the measurable output of the NHS (rather than the funding) they might even win a few votes.
I'm in my final stretch of GP training and intend to do very little GP work on qualifying. The service is underfunded and GP is high risk work with the ten min slots.
I can either see patients properly and go home late (no thanks) or see patients in ten mins and ask them to come back or just cut corners (no thanks)
So f
k it. I will do maybe 1-2 days a week on qualifying and do something else the rest of the time.
I can either see patients properly and go home late (no thanks) or see patients in ten mins and ask them to come back or just cut corners (no thanks)
So f
k it. I will do maybe 1-2 days a week on qualifying and do something else the rest of the time. Derek I didn’t say GPs have cushy numbers (if my post is not clear, it was at a hospital specialist department). And regarding triage as you’ve worked in emergencies services I’m not surprised you are very familiar with it. But up until a few years ago I had never heard the term and then it started becoming common usage over the phone from a doctors surgery FGS. You phone up because you want an appointment, what used to happen is they’d give you an appointment.
My mother in law is a cleaner at a small Midlands hospital. She has four supervisors, two managers and a further manager above that. In addition they use agency staff for management roles.
The NHS is and always will be, top heavy with management. If the NHS was run like a private company it would be far more efficient. Go into any medical facility and you will hear stories of over worked staff working long hours for no thanks. Yet you will also see three or four stood around desks or nurses stations gossiping. The NHS needs a complete overhaul from top to bottom and a lot if deadwood cut out. The trouble is, not one politician is going to stand up and suggest that because the NHS is sacred. Pots and pans on a Thursday night and groups of nursing staff so stressed and so busy they have time to rehearse and film crap dances for Tik Tok.
The NHS is and always will be, top heavy with management. If the NHS was run like a private company it would be far more efficient. Go into any medical facility and you will hear stories of over worked staff working long hours for no thanks. Yet you will also see three or four stood around desks or nurses stations gossiping. The NHS needs a complete overhaul from top to bottom and a lot if deadwood cut out. The trouble is, not one politician is going to stand up and suggest that because the NHS is sacred. Pots and pans on a Thursday night and groups of nursing staff so stressed and so busy they have time to rehearse and film crap dances for Tik Tok.
Looking at this from afar.....
I was last treated by the NHS about 50 years ago and brilliant it was... however I do get the feeling from reading all about the present NHS is that it is vastly overpopulated by "managers", and very poorly paid medical staff who work huge amounts of overtime with virtually no rewards.. (clapping in the street does not pay the bills)
To compare with Germany, fantastic service and good clean hospitals.... However the normal staff are in the same boat as the NHS medical staff... overworked and underpaid... and the so-called covid bonus, which all were supposed to get... was swallowed up by the head doctors and non-nursing staff.... the guys and gals (and diverses) at the front got a smack with a wet haddock.....
BUT we are also suffering here from lack of doctors and nursing staff... they can't get any docs for country practices so they're thinking of making them do an obligatory 3 years immediately after qualification in a country practice or they'll not be allowed to practice.....
I was last treated by the NHS about 50 years ago and brilliant it was... however I do get the feeling from reading all about the present NHS is that it is vastly overpopulated by "managers", and very poorly paid medical staff who work huge amounts of overtime with virtually no rewards.. (clapping in the street does not pay the bills)
To compare with Germany, fantastic service and good clean hospitals.... However the normal staff are in the same boat as the NHS medical staff... overworked and underpaid... and the so-called covid bonus, which all were supposed to get... was swallowed up by the head doctors and non-nursing staff.... the guys and gals (and diverses) at the front got a smack with a wet haddock.....
BUT we are also suffering here from lack of doctors and nursing staff... they can't get any docs for country practices so they're thinking of making them do an obligatory 3 years immediately after qualification in a country practice or they'll not be allowed to practice.....
Derek Smith said:
Dentistry has been run down by way of government regulations, particularly about how much money they receive. If a private dentist also has NHS patients, it is virtually pro-bono. It is a deliberate policy. Whatever changes this government puts forward for health service delivery, dentistry will not be targeted.
I don't think that is accurate, bearing in mind that the amount you pay per visit is only a small proportion of the amount that NHS dentists receive. dentalhealth said:
The NHS spends around £2.25 billion on dental treatment a year and patients only pay £550 million of this.
https://www.dentalhealth.org/paying-for-dental-treatment-in-the-united-kingdomPrivate dentistry is undoubtedly more lucrative but then that is partly driven by the difficulty in finding an NHS dentist in many parts of the country, but pure NHS dentists could still likely earn over £80K, so hardly "pro-bono" work.
Every member of my family has had quite serious misdiagnosis.
My wife for example was sent home after 5 hours in a&e suffering what turned out to be a significant pulmonary embolism.
She was pregnant at time and would have been given a high dose of codine, which is a bid no, no, if we hadn’t questioned it.
I also find doctors generally uncaring and condescending.
My wife for example was sent home after 5 hours in a&e suffering what turned out to be a significant pulmonary embolism.
She was pregnant at time and would have been given a high dose of codine, which is a bid no, no, if we hadn’t questioned it.
I also find doctors generally uncaring and condescending.
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