Why is the UK so ‘bad’?
Discussion
We have a terrible healthcare system that doesn’t do its core role of saving lives particularly well. A bang-average education system that disadvantages our poorest children. Our military spends 2% of GDP, yet we have <80,000 in the British Army and only 12 capital warships. Our infrastructure is in a dire state of repair with a deficit of airports, 5G, EV charging points, insufficient electricity production, and water leaks due to old water pipes. I could go on.
A cursory glance at Norwegian government expenditure - it is no. 1 in the Human Development Index - shows both countries have a 40% marginal tax rate.
Imagine, for a moment, you are the Prime Minister. You have ~ £800bn to spend.
You wish to make the UK the most productive, healthy, best-defended, cleanest, most advanced nation possible.
How do you achieve this? Or am I being overly pessimistic?
A cursory glance at Norwegian government expenditure - it is no. 1 in the Human Development Index - shows both countries have a 40% marginal tax rate.
Imagine, for a moment, you are the Prime Minister. You have ~ £800bn to spend.
You wish to make the UK the most productive, healthy, best-defended, cleanest, most advanced nation possible.
How do you achieve this? Or am I being overly pessimistic?
We spend less per capita on healthcare than almost any other country in the developed world, less than half as much per capita as some countries. The NHS is, compared to just about any other healthcare system in the world, hugely efficient.
Another interesting point - using Norway as in your example, they have a tax-to-GDP ratio of around 40%; ours is 33% so relative to the size of their economy they are paying 20% more overall tax than us. This chart makes interesting reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by... . See how far down the list the UK is compared to most of the rest of Europe.
Our government does seem particularly good at wasting money on grand schemes which never come to fruition or which are clearly flawed (HS2 anyone?), but I think they all do that to be honest. They're also very good at wasting money on a smaller scale; I've lost count of how many times some of the pot-holes around here have been badly repaired; I'm sure for what they've spent on half-arsed jobs they could have properly re-surfaced the entire roads in some cases.
Another interesting point - using Norway as in your example, they have a tax-to-GDP ratio of around 40%; ours is 33% so relative to the size of their economy they are paying 20% more overall tax than us. This chart makes interesting reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by... . See how far down the list the UK is compared to most of the rest of Europe.
Our government does seem particularly good at wasting money on grand schemes which never come to fruition or which are clearly flawed (HS2 anyone?), but I think they all do that to be honest. They're also very good at wasting money on a smaller scale; I've lost count of how many times some of the pot-holes around here have been badly repaired; I'm sure for what they've spent on half-arsed jobs they could have properly re-surfaced the entire roads in some cases.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 20th April 21:09
MSBravo said:
We have a terrible healthcare system that doesn’t do its core role of saving lives particularly well. A bang-average education system that disadvantages our poorest children. Our military spends 2% of GDP, yet we have <80,000 in the British Army and only 12 capital warships. Our infrastructure is in a dire state of repair with a deficit of airports, 5G, EV charging points, insufficient electricity production, and water leaks due to old water pipes. I could go on.
A cursory glance at Norwegian government expenditure - it is no. 1 in the Human Development Index - shows both countries have a 40% marginal tax rate.
Imagine, for a moment, you are the Prime Minister. You have ~ £800bn to spend.
You wish to make the UK the most productive, healthy, best-defended, cleanest, most advanced nation possible.
How do you achieve this? Or am I being overly pessimistic?
Other countries are available to live in.A cursory glance at Norwegian government expenditure - it is no. 1 in the Human Development Index - shows both countries have a 40% marginal tax rate.
Imagine, for a moment, you are the Prime Minister. You have ~ £800bn to spend.
You wish to make the UK the most productive, healthy, best-defended, cleanest, most advanced nation possible.
How do you achieve this? Or am I being overly pessimistic?
MSBravo said:
We have a terrible healthcare system that doesn’t do its core role of saving lives particularly well. A bang-average education system that disadvantages our poorest children. Our military spends 2% of GDP, yet we have <80,000 in the British Army and only 12 capital warships. Our infrastructure is in a dire state of repair with a deficit of airports, 5G, EV charging points, insufficient electricity production, and water leaks due to old water pipes. I could go on.
A cursory glance at Norwegian government expenditure - it is no. 1 in the Human Development Index - shows both countries have a 40% marginal tax rate.
Imagine, for a moment, you are the Prime Minister. You have ~ £800bn to spend.
You wish to make the UK the most productive, healthy, best-defended, cleanest, most advanced nation possible.
How do you achieve this? Or am I being overly pessimistic?
We don’t pay enough tax is the crux of it and not have we for many many many decades. A cursory glance at Norwegian government expenditure - it is no. 1 in the Human Development Index - shows both countries have a 40% marginal tax rate.
Imagine, for a moment, you are the Prime Minister. You have ~ £800bn to spend.
You wish to make the UK the most productive, healthy, best-defended, cleanest, most advanced nation possible.
How do you achieve this? Or am I being overly pessimistic?
And it’s not just the rich need to pay more it’s everyone but no one is willing to do that.
Take 1 thing we could all do - remove the principle primary residence tax free capital gains away.
Take 2 remove the 25% tax free allowance to take out of your pension fund.
Take 3 national insurance doesn’t stop when you reach a. Retain age it continues until you die
Take 4 we should scrap the tax wrappers on all Tessas peps and ISAs we have far too much debt and this should be reasonable to be taxed.
Monkeylegend said:
MSBravo said:
Dear shirt, do you know how to move it to the news forum, thank you
So you can't post in it 
The phenomenon of LQPs (Lower Quality Posters) attempting to start NP&E threads outwith that parish, and then being simultaneously disenfranchised and open to possible roasting to which they cannot respond.
Key things in comparison to Norway:
We spend pretty much the same on the military as a percentage of gdp.
In return, we have essentially the third most capable force projection military in the world. Ignore numbers, focus on capability. We punch significantly beyond our weight.
Tax - ignore upper rate, focus on average rate, and you'll see the key difference between the Scandinavian countries is they are far less progressive. Lower incomes pay far more tax than in the UK, indeed fully half the population pay no net tax at all in the UK, this absolutely is not the case in Norway.
Healthcare - we're slap bang average for spend, yet in terms of resources per capita we're dogs
t. Nurses/beds/critical care beds/etc., per capita are fractions of those spending a much smaller percentage more. Two thirds the spend of Germany, yet an eighth the nurses, a third the beds, a fifth the critical care capacity. Outcomes are far, far better elsewhere.
Welfare state - top line is more generous in much of the OECD, but duration of benefit eligibility is far longer in the UK. Far fewer people wholly reliant on benefits for a long term.
Frankly, the UK really isn't 'bad' at all, and in fact is actually damned fking good. There's a reason a significant percentage of the planet would absolutely love to live here. It could be better, but it'd take a wholesale shift in mindset and ethos.
We spend pretty much the same on the military as a percentage of gdp.
In return, we have essentially the third most capable force projection military in the world. Ignore numbers, focus on capability. We punch significantly beyond our weight.
Tax - ignore upper rate, focus on average rate, and you'll see the key difference between the Scandinavian countries is they are far less progressive. Lower incomes pay far more tax than in the UK, indeed fully half the population pay no net tax at all in the UK, this absolutely is not the case in Norway.
Healthcare - we're slap bang average for spend, yet in terms of resources per capita we're dogs
t. Nurses/beds/critical care beds/etc., per capita are fractions of those spending a much smaller percentage more. Two thirds the spend of Germany, yet an eighth the nurses, a third the beds, a fifth the critical care capacity. Outcomes are far, far better elsewhere. Welfare state - top line is more generous in much of the OECD, but duration of benefit eligibility is far longer in the UK. Far fewer people wholly reliant on benefits for a long term.
Frankly, the UK really isn't 'bad' at all, and in fact is actually damned f
king good. There's a reason a significant percentage of the planet would absolutely love to live here. It could be better, but it'd take a wholesale shift in mindset and ethos. MSBravo said:
We have a terrible healthcare system that doesn’t do its core role of saving lives particularly well. A bang-average education system that disadvantages our poorest children. Our military spends 2% of GDP, yet we have <80,000 in the British Army and only 12 capital warships. Our infrastructure is in a dire state of repair with a deficit of airports, 5G, EV charging points, insufficient electricity production, and water leaks due to old water pipes. I could go on.
Many factually questionable statements in that lot. And equally questionable opinions. kambites said:
or which are clearly flawed (HS2 anyone?), [/footnote]
Nothing wrong with HS2. Obviously those who are impacted are campaigning against it and have successfully managed to spout huge amounts of garbage some of which has been taken as gospel. They have also caused changes etc which has increased cost. All of which has been helped b the suggestion that the main benefit of HS2 is reducing journey time when its not, The main benefit is to provide capacity on the existing lines to allow more local services and freight.The issue about major infrastructure projects in this country is that we spend so long talking about them we cant afford to do them. We need to decide what we are going to do and do it!
Welshbeef said:
We don’t pay enough tax is the crux of it and not have we for many many many decades.
And it’s not just the rich need to pay more it’s everyone but no one is willing to do that.
Take 1 thing we could all do - remove the principle primary residence tax free capital gains away.
Take 2 remove the 25% tax free allowance to take out of your pension fund.
Take 3 national insurance doesn’t stop when you reach a. Retain age it continues until you die
Take 4 we should scrap the tax wrappers on all Tessas peps and ISAs we have far too much debt and this should be reasonable to be taxed.
Take 5, encourage saving. That’s where 1-4 falls down. I know and agree with you on some of it but it’s not an easy balance to strike. Save and have it taken from you by those who haven’t is not a tempting prospect, don’t and hope you’re looked after isn’t either. Some of it boils down to the inflection point of when it becomes worth your while but you don’t know you’ll meet it when you’re starting out (certain privileged ones excepted).And it’s not just the rich need to pay more it’s everyone but no one is willing to do that.
Take 1 thing we could all do - remove the principle primary residence tax free capital gains away.
Take 2 remove the 25% tax free allowance to take out of your pension fund.
Take 3 national insurance doesn’t stop when you reach a. Retain age it continues until you die
Take 4 we should scrap the tax wrappers on all Tessas peps and ISAs we have far too much debt and this should be reasonable to be taxed.
Id happily debate social contracts as I think that’s the crux of what it boils down to and think all governments have failed at their duty to preserve them as it’s much easier to lay blame than take hard decisions.
roger.mellie said:
eharding said:
Hoofy said:
MSBravo smells of cheese!
I like a smelly cheese more than I like some humans.
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