How much is a life worth?

[Kermit power]

BBC News - Sophie Lancaster murder: Killer Ryan Herbert to be freed from jail
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-6...

So fourteen years if you behave yourself in prison, apparently!

Even if he was only 16 at the time, how is that possibly sufficient punishment for kicking a poor girl to death just because she was trying to protect her boyfriend from further attack?

[mikebradford]

It's disgusting how little punishment he got.
Murder doesn't just effect those who are dead.
It's all those who live knowing he's been murdered.

I expect to see stories in the future that he will reoffend with excuses about his traumatic upbringing and time in prison.

Occasionally I do believe the world's gone soft.

[Electro1980]

What is more important? That people are rehabilitate or that society gets its pound of flesh? Research shows which is more effective at reducing damage to society, yet so many remain obsessed with ensuring that people suffer despite the fact that it makes things worse, not better, for society.

[Rockets7]

Electro1980 said:

What is more important? That people are rehabilitate or that society gets its pound of flesh? Research shows which is more effective at reducing damage to society, yet so many remain obsessed with ensuring that people suffer despite the fact that it makes things worse, not better, for society.

Some people are past rehab.
Some people deserve to suffer.
Let’s hope there’s not a repeat....

[stichill99]

Yes Society needs it's pound of flesh! Or perhaps it needs to feel that decent law abiding people are given the right of protection from murderers or rapists. Perhaps if it was your wife who had been kicked to death Electro you might feel different.

[croyde]

The paramedics couldn't tell if she was male or female as her facial injuries were so bad.

Says to me that her attackers should never see the light of day.

If I was her dad I'd make sure that justice would be done.

[jmflare]

Electro1980 said:

What is more important? That people are rehabilitate or that society gets its pound of flesh? Research shows which is more effective at reducing damage to society, yet so many remain obsessed with ensuring that people suffer despite the fact that it makes things worse, not better, for society.

.

[Tomanybikes]

croyde said:

The paramedics couldn't tell if she was male or female as her facial injuries were so bad.

Says to me that her attackers should never see the light of day.

If I was her dad I'd make sure that justice would be done.

100%.

[Electro1980]

stichill99 said:

Yes Society needs it's pound of flesh! Or perhaps it needs to feel that decent law abiding people are given the right of protection from murderers or rapists. Perhaps if it was your wife who had been kicked to death Electro you might feel different.

Oh ps off with the emotive crap.

I want a society that is better protect. The simple fact is society is better protected by rehabilitation than retribution. Maybe your fine with a justice system that is focused on making the public feel they have vengeance but I would prefer one that actually gives people protection from crime by preventing them in the first place.

[J4CKO]

croyde said:

The paramedics couldn't tell if she was male or female as her facial injuries were so bad.

Says to me that her attackers should never see the light of day.

If I was her dad I'd make sure that justice would be done.

Yeah, I wouldn’t intervene and try and get him kept in, could then plan for him to meet the same fate.

[MikeM6]

Electro1980 said:

stichill99 said:

Yes Society needs it's pound of flesh! Or perhaps it needs to feel that decent law abiding people are given the right of protection from murderers or rapists. Perhaps if it was your wife who had been kicked to death Electro you might feel different.

Oh ps off with the emotive crap.

I want a society that is better protect. The simple fact is society is better protected by rehabilitation than retribution. Maybe your fine with a justice system that is focused on making the public feel they have vengeance but I would prefer one that actually gives people protection from crime by preventing them in the first place.

As unpopular as this view may seem, it is correct.

The issue I have is how they can measure if they have been successful in the rehabilitation process and created a reformed character.

[JuanCarlosFandango]

Electro1980 said:

What is more important? That people are rehabilitate or that society gets its pound of flesh? Research shows which is more effective at reducing damage to society, yet so many remain obsessed with ensuring that people suffer despite the fact that it makes things worse, not better, for society.

Have you got a link to this research?

[Spare tyre]

Sad times

If that had happened to my daughter or wife it’d ruin my life and I’d probably end up doing myself in


Rehabilitation for some things if done early enough are great, but certain things no.


I sound a bit old fashioned and out of touch I’m sure, but we need to stop rewarding certain scumbags for breeding. Whole families from cradle to grave just contributing nothing but probably costing millions and only generating misery to those around them (I’ve experienced social housing neighbours and had to move because of the misery they caused all of our road, also seeing the massive resources they consume with constant visits from every agency under the sun)

[LeadFarmer]

JuanCarlosFandango said:

Electro1980 said:

What is more important? That people are rehabilitate or that society gets its pound of flesh? Research shows which is more effective at reducing damage to society, yet so many remain obsessed with ensuring that people suffer despite the fact that it makes things worse, not better, for society.

Have you got a link to this research?

Why are people these days only satisfied once a link has been provided?

[originals]

Electro1980 said:

Oh ps off with the emotive crap.

I want a society that is better protect. The simple fact is society is better protected by rehabilitation than retribution. Maybe your fine with a justice system that is focused on making the public feel they have vengeance but I would prefer one that actually gives people protection from crime by preventing them in the first place.

You're the one posting crap.

[Jim the Sunderer]

I blame the KPIs, and Boris allowing bloody stupid stuff like lie detector tests.

[Electro1980]

JuanCarlosFandango said:

Have you got a link to this research?

https://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug03/rehab
https://ejceudaimonia.com/2020/10/28/rehabilitatio...
http://www.prisonreformtrust.org.uk/
https://borgenproject.org/norways-prison-system/
https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-48885846.amp

And a hundred more. This has been raked over hundreds of times on here.

It seems those that are most vocal on public sector inefficiency in other areas are quite ready to waste money in a justice system proven to be a waste because of their emotional reaction.

originals said:

You're the one posting crap.

Is that all you have? No facts, just feelings and emotive knee jerk reactions?

[GroundZero]

Rehab vs punishment.
I'm not sure how many believe the effectiveness of rehab for certain cases/individuals because many studies and comparisons made are not exactly like for like.
They compare different cultures, different times, different gangs, different drug cultures, different law enforcements, different economic opportunities etc.

But I think the severity of the crime should see a switch for when rehab is defaulted to punishment no matter what.
Murder is one of those where I think the focus should always be on punishment.

[MikeM6]

originals said:

You're the one posting crap.

Care to elaborate?

I would say that fixing the underlying problem is preferential to merely punishing the consequences. If you just punish someone, they are worthless to the rest of us, but cost us resources.

If you aim to fix them and turn them into someone of use, then we all benefit from at least reduced cost of punishment, but also potentially from gaining from their productivity.

I would suggest that emotion (quite understandably) affects judgement on these matters. If someone hurt my loved ones, my emotional response is to inflict retribution. It doesn't help though, I won't feel better, they won't and society doesn't. Getting what I want just does not move anything forward, save to satisfy my short term emotional need. If I take a step back and look past my own needs, I would see more clearly what would benefit more, both others and myself.

As I said before though, the hard bit is making sure that the rehabilitation works and you don't release someone to re-offend.

[JagLover]

GroundZero said:

Rehab vs punishment.
I'm not sure how many believe the effectiveness of rehab for certain cases/individuals because many studies and comparisons made are not exactly like for like.
They compare different cultures, different times, different gangs, different drug cultures, different law enforcements, different economic opportunities etc.

But I think the severity of the crime should see a switch for when rehab is defaulted to punishment no matter what.
Murder is one of those where I think the focus should always be on punishment.

Indeed

Rehab vs punishment is more a balance for crimes like vandalism, theft etc where you have to decide between giving second and third chances and going down the punishment route. Once someone has violently beaten to death another person for no reason then the calculation is different and the primary concern should be deterrence and safeguarding society from that individual.