House stolen

[Blackpuddin]

Somebody impersonated the absent owner of a house in Luton and 'legally' sold it to someone who is now, reasonably enough you might think, refusing to budge.
Makes you wonder how much real attention is paid to ID matters in the paper storm of a house sale. You'd think that at least one solicitor is going to have some hard questions to answer.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-590696...

[bad company]

Apparently the ‘buyer’ now owns the house. How can that be when the fraudster/seller didn’t have proper title to sell?

Is there a solicitor or conveyancer around to answer?

[coldel]

Yeah I just read this - amazing isn't it. And scary at the same time.

If you buy a stolen car, you don't own that car and if it comes to light its stolen you have to return it, I am sure the new 'owner' cannot legitimately own the house given it was purchased as part of a fraud, even if the buyer didn't realise it.

[Evanivitch]

In the case of home ownership, is the property owned purely by whomever has their name on the deeds?

Just wondering, as a car that has been sold illegally would be repossessed from the new "owner" with little or no chance for compensation.

[98elise]

bad company said:

Apparently the ‘buyer’ now owns the house. How can that be when the fraudster/seller didn’t have proper title to sell?

Is there a solicitor or conveyancer around to answer?

I would guess technically they do because they are on the Land Registry as the owner.

Longer term who knows. Obviously it shouldn't have been sold in the first place.

[ARHarh]

surely the solicitor / conveyancer / office junior will have some kind of insurance against making mistakes like not asking for proof of ID etc? And surely that will compensate the defrauded owner or new owner.

[untakenname]

I find it odd that the Police say it's a civil matter, I know someone who went through similar when their shed of a JDM car was stolen around a decade ago and had the same response from the Police.
They didn't notify the insurers as it wasn't worth a lot back then, fast forward to a couple of years ago it came up for sale (in a far better state then when it was taken) but they were unable to get it back even though it was originally stolen from them and they received no compensation from the insurers from the original theft.


Surprised this sort of thing with houses doesn't occur more often, this was in the news a while back with the tenant taking out a loan against the landlords house
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2005/dec/17/scam...

[Evanivitch]

ARHarh said:

surely the solicitor / conveyancer / office junior will have some kind of insurance against making mistakes like not asking for proof of ID etc? And surely that will compensate the defrauded owner or new owner.

Or both. As one has bought a "stolen" house and the other has had their house absolutely gutted.

They will have insurance, but they're clearly not going to admit any liability until the insurance have had their chance to argue for the minimum settlement.

[LeadFarmer]

The cash generated from the sale of the house kind of becomes the stolen property/item.

[fido]

Luton. Enough said.

Hope they thorougly investigate/ream the solicitor as they are meant to check the identity of their client.

[anonymous-user]

untakenname said:

I find it odd that the Police say it's a civil matter, I know someone who went through similar when their shed of a JDM car was stolen around a decade ago and had the same response from the Police.

They didn't notify the insurers as it wasn't worth a lot back then, fast forward to a couple of years ago it came up for sale (in a far better state then when it was taken) but they were unable to get it back even though it was originally stolen from them and they received no compensation from the insurers from the original theft.


Surprised this sort of thing with houses doesn't occur more often, this was in the news a while back with the tenant taking out a loan against the landlords house
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2005/dec/17/scam...

Sadly, I don't find it odd at all. The police seem to use the 'civil matter' excuse at every possible opportunity, especially if it involves ownership/theft/fraud or something even vaguely complicated, or anything they don't understand.

Interestingly a friend of mine had a similar car/police experience. He had a very well known show car which was in a bodyshop for some minor work, bodyshop owner owed some extremely unpleasant criminals money, criminals came to the bodyshop one night and simply told the bodyshop owner they were 'taking that car as payment' even thought it belonged to a customer (my friend).

Police absolutely did not want to know. As soon as they got the slightest whiff of 'car taken to settle a debt' they immediately declared it a civil matter and simply a 'disagreement over money'.

It was absolutely shocking.

I heard about this stolen house case on BBC R4 You and Yours one day, and as soon as I heard the police wouldn't get involved I wasn't surprised in the slightest.

fido said:

Luton. Enough said.

Hope they thorougly investigate/ream the solicitor as they are meant to check the identity of their client.

On the R4 program they played the recordings of the criminal phoning up the solicitors office and instructing them to proceed with the sale and discussing it with the solicitor, and all I could think of was The Simpsons episode where Homer calls the post office and pretends to be 'Mr Burns'.

The criminal making the phone call had a very, very obviously Asian/Bradford type 'innit' accent while announcing himself as Michael Hall, the homeowner. Even as a layperson I thought "how the heck would anyone fall for that?". He just sounded like he was clearly up to something.

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 1st November 10:39

[LeadFarmer]

Problem is, if something is a civil matter then it's a civil matter. The fact someone disagrees whether it's civil or not doesn't change that. Taking your car to a garage is a civil contract between you and the garage, with an understanding they will return the car to you, if they don't return it then it can be regarded as a breach of contract by the garage, which are usually considered to be a civil matter.

[Evoluzione]

I feel some kind of odd admiration for whoever did it, it's hard enough to buy one legally, let alone illegally.
Can you image performing a scam which could go eitherway for months? They must know the system very well and have balls of steel.

[MDMetal]

coldel said:

Yeah I just read this - amazing isn't it. And scary at the same time.

If you buy a stolen car, you don't own that car and if it comes to light its stolen you have to return it, I am sure the new 'owner' cannot legitimately own the house given it was purchased as part of a fraud, even if the buyer didn't realise it.

Isn't that because you're never the owner of the car you're the keeper and this is for exactly that and other reasons?

[Mammasaid]

This is why everyone who owns property in England or Wales should sign up to Land Registry Property Alerts;

https://propertyalert.landregistry.gov.uk/

[monthou]

LeadFarmer said:

Problem is, if something is a civil matter then it's a civil matter. The fact someone disagrees whether it's civil or not doesn't change that. Taking your car to a garage is a civil contract between you and the garage, with an understanding they will return the car to you, if they don't return it then it can be regarded as a breach of contract by the garage, which are usually considered to be a civil matter.

Selling a house you don't own is criminal.
Are you saying otherwise?

[Evanivitch]

MDMetal said:

Isn't that because you're never the owner of the car you're the keeper and this is for exactly that and other reasons?

No, you definitely own a car (as a private individual, business or fleet), but the registered keeper is not legal proof of ownership.

[andy43]

Mammasaid said:

This is why everyone who owns property in England or Wales should sign up to Land Registry Property Alerts;

https://propertyalert.landregistry.gov.uk/

This. You get an email alert when a search is performed with the name of the solicitors and their reference so you can chase it. Works on land too. Dead easy to set up, free, and a no brainer for landlords.

[Jeremy-75qq8]

Mammasaid said:

This is why everyone who owns property in England or Wales should sign up to Land Registry Property Alerts;

https://propertyalert.landregistry.gov.uk/

Just done this - brilliant thx

[Jasandjules]

LeadFarmer said:

Problem is, if something is a civil matter then it's a civil matter. The fact someone disagrees whether it's civil or not doesn't change that. Taking your car to a garage is a civil contract between you and the garage, with an understanding they will return the car to you, if they don't return it then it can be regarded as a breach of contract by the garage, which are usually considered to be a civil matter.

Well, Fraud is a criminal matter.. Unless you want to claim that it is not fraud to impersonate someone and sell their property......