Private schools, times a changing?

[okgo]

I seem to remember there was a thread run on here maybe a year or so back that talked a little about schools and there were some interesting viewpoints on the matter, I am in a fortunate position to be able to pay for school but the more I read the more I wonder whether it is really worth it..

I was reading again recently about the school in East London - https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/oxford-cambridg... - that had got more people into Oxbridge than Eton, and have also since been looking at various school websites etc that have all sorts of financial help and what not for those coming from state primaries and the like. Going as far even to have people visiting the more deprived schools to spread the word that if you're smart enough, then we will pay for your schooling here, that sort of message.

It got me thinking, are the times changing somewhat on paid for schools and actually top universities (which after all is arguably one of the key 'purposes' of paying for school to that point) are looking to have a much more diverse intake of people than ever before and possibly even targeting those from more humble backgrounds than the usual suspects?

For those that have sent their kids to a fee paying school, would you do it again based on the potential shift I mention? And for those that went themselves, if you have kids, or when your kids are of that age, will you look to send them?

[thewarlock]

I didn't go to private school. I was always pretty smart, worked hard, passed my exams, off to Uni, passed that, got a job, etc.

My wife, she went to private school. Left school, went to Uni, dropped out because it wasn't for her, tried several different things before she found her 'place'.

My take on it though, is what whilst she may claim that private school didn't do her terribly much good, evidenced by the above, she is of a mindset that allows her to achieve things. It's partly inherited/taught by her Father, who was very successful (and very stubborn, she acquired that too) at what he set out to do in business and life, but IMO it's certainly the case that at least part of it was developed at school.

They're given opportuinities that a lot of us are not, that's true, but they're also taught things in a fashion that the rest of us could be, but are not. There was a lot more focus on non-technical subjects and aspects of life at her school than there seemed to be at my school.

She's now a Director at work, 8 months and 2 promotions after joining as an HR business partner. I've just wrapped up my own company (can't even call myself a Director any more!) and work for 'the man'.

But then, maybe this is all just because I went to a terrible school where drugs, fights, knifes and so on were the norm, and it's just skewed my perspective.

[BT Summers]

My step daughter went to private school, funded until I knew her by a rich uncle who stopped paying when I married the step daughter's mother, we couldn't really afford the school fees and economies had to be made.

I am not convinced that she had a better education than at a state school because her private school did not have a 6th Form, the most expensive part of a private school system.

She went on to do degrees in European Law, Spanish literature and Portuguese.

Total basket case now but that is a whole other story.

[Challo]

My friends wife recently started working at a private school (3-16) as a teacher. Due to the discounts they provide staff members they have decided to transfer their two daughters across from the local primary. They only started in September so unsure long term if they will have a better education.

He has mentioned though that the class sizes are 50% smaller, and the options the kids have in terms of sports, IT, school trips far exceeds what they could have got at the local state primary.

While private school doesn't guarantee you a better education, it defiantly would give you a better start in life.

[dundarach]

We send ours, have budgeted circa £250,000 of late mums estate towards it.

We both taught in state schools, Mrs D still does.

That was the reason!

Kids seems to love it, great deal of rich idiots, more normal people scraping by, or using inheritance.

[okgo]

Challo said:

My friends wife recently started working at a private school (3-16) as a teacher. Due to the discounts they provide staff members they have decided to transfer their two daughters across from the local primary. They only started in September so unsure long term if they will have a better education.

He has mentioned though that the class sizes are 50% smaller, and the options the kids have in terms of sports, IT, school trips far exceeds what they could have got at the local state primary.

While private school doesn't guarantee you a better education, it defiantly would give you a better start in life.

I think this is what powers my positive thoughts towards it. More exposure to a greater number of things and more attention all the while, and of course the ability to get rid of kids if they're a pain.

The problem being as picked up my Warlock is that some state schools are great, some are atrocious. London generally picks up the a huge cross section of society in just a few hundred meters. And you can bet that even a small number of trouble makers will drag the rest down vs being dragged up by the rest.

My state primary had fewer than 100 pupils and we got to piggyback all of the facilities that the very large and expensive private school over the road had. Seemed best of both worlds really. But not so easy to find those places in cities/larger towns. And of course the secondary I went to despite also being quite rural had 1200 people and drew from a large catchment, plenty of aholes came with it.

[zedstar]

What do you want out of a private school?

Better education - possibly but IMO not likely, you are far better off investing in private tutors
Sports - far better facilities in private
Better environment - possibly yes. My school had students who were 'protected' because they played rugby and/or had rich influential parents but smaller classes can mean more focus on individual students
Improved peers - sad to to say but I think on some level being around high achievers and their families can be quite inspirational in a subtle way, one's norms adjust to a higher level
Better confidence for your child - I think so. I'm not a very confident person, but as a child of first generational immigrants i'm still regarded in our community as the one to take with you when you want to be taken seriously, cos 'they'll listen to him, he talks posh innit'

[nordboy]

We sent both of ours to private school, my lad is dyslexic and he came out of there with 10 gcse's, 3 a levels and then went on to get a degree. So I think it was very worth it for him, even though he originally didn't want to go there and it cost us a small fortune, we had to make many financial sacrifices but i don't really regret that at all. It gave him a great start.

My daughter though, was getting on well but one year there was a bit of a change in pupils, there was only 6 girls in the year and some of her friends left and new girls came in. The dynamics changed and one of the new girls took the opportunity to bully her, sadly teens being teens, some of her older friends didn't want to be the odd ones out so joined in. Anyway, being only 6 girls in the year, she had no one else to turn to, so became unhappy very quickly. The school were st at sorting it out, because they needed every penny, didn't want to upset some of the parents, they tried to brush it off. Eventually my daughter asked to leave and go to the local comprehensive school, which has been great for her. She's doing great now.

Oh, and the private school then tried to charge us another terms fees as they felt 3 months notice of her leaving wasn't enough!!!

So, works for some, not for others.

[croyde]

I was State School in a tough area but I did well and worked from 17. I'm old.

Ex wife was various private schools including boarding. Complete rebel, scraped through. Her parents were rich though so have propped her up financially. My parents were poor so that taught me the value of money.

Ex insisted our 3 went private.

Eldest went 50% of the time failed As and the retakes a year later. Is currently on her second attempt of foundation course at Uni.

Middle one had a terrible time at his private, bullied a lot. I pulled him out at 14 and he went State. Still hasn't done well.

Youngest went private at 13 as his State was awful but it seemed too late. State had toughened him up and got him in with the wrong crowd.

His private is small and lovely with such good people as teachers but Covid closed the school and he just wouldn't get on with the on line stuff.

I'd have done so well at his school given the chance so.....

I guess it's down to the kids. If they want to learn and take advantage of all the extras that private school can give, plus you can afford it, go for it but......

If they seem like they are not interested, save your money.

Looking at some of these private schools they offer a lot of what I had in my State school back in the 70s but thanks to budget cuts the modern State schools offer the bare minimum in extra curricular activities and sport.

At my Comp we did woodwork, metalwork, plastic work, pottery, working on cars, sailing,drama and all sorts of other sports.

My youngest's Comp barely had an hour of sport a week.

Edited by croyde on Monday 25th October 16:17

[Ziplobb]

I went to a private school but my wife did not. We decided to send both of ours to state schools. We could have afforded to pay for one but not the other and did not think that was fair. It helped that our local primary school was excellent. Both of our have left 6th form within the last two years with 8 A levels between them comprising of A*,A and one B. Both had excellent uni offers (none of this unconditional bks) with one at Loughborough (currently on work placement) and the other starting Bath. Several friends have had kids at the school I went to with very mixed acedemic results and outcomes. One thing is for certain the opportunites over the years at a private school are there to be taken so we have actively made an effort to get our two interested in sport, music etc. The both travelled when they were 15 , eldest to south america youngest to north africa. Very happy with outcomes so far.

Now state schools - you get what you put in. Here on the Isle of Wight they have pretty dire reputations. There is some bad teaching and some uninterested parents but as pointed in a post above everyone seems to get dragged down to the lowest level in class by the kids that really should not be there at all. The other biggest influence on kids outcomes at a state school is idleness - by the kids themselves. Even the ones with parents who you would think have some common sense seem to be bone idle and its their biggest disadvantage - to me anyway.

[gareth h]

I sent both mine to a private school, it was influenced by the local state schools not being great, but more important to me was the way the kids at this school conducted themselves, they were confident without being arrogant, on top the academic side they had great sport / art / drama departments and were encouraged to make the most of them.
Probably the best part of a new 720 McLaren spent, do I regret it? Absolutely not, in the same position, and with hindsight I would do it again without a doubt.

[Panamax]

I never cease to amazed how few hours a day/week/term kids actually spend attending state schools. To my mind that's one of the biggest differences, and it's not just about passing exams or getting into university. More opportunity to learn in the broadest sense.

[Dicky Knee]

zedstar said:

What do you want out of a private school?

Better education - possibly but IMO not likely, you are far better off investing in private tutors
Sports - far better facilities in private
Better environment - possibly yes. My school had students who were 'protected' because they played rugby and/or had rich influential parents but smaller classes can mean more focus on individual students
Improved peers - sad to to say but I think on some level being around high achievers and their families can be quite inspirational in a subtle way, one's norms adjust to a higher level
Better confidence for your child - I think so. I'm not a very confident person, but as a child of first generational immigrants i'm still regarded in our community as the one to take with you when you want to be taken seriously, cos 'they'll listen to him, he talks posh innit'

This is the question to ask yourself.

I have put my 3 through private school and all of the above has been our experience. A big influence has been the extra curricular opportunities which very much relies on whether your kids are going to get involved. My son loved Cadets and is now in the military and my daughters loved the Design and Technology (due to a very proactive teacher) and are now doing design engineering degrees.

Mrs Knee (or Dr Knee as she prefers to be called) is in education/teaching as a researcher and her opinion is that the major influence on educational outcomes is the attitude towards education and support from home.

Anecdotally it seems that the local strategy for kids aspiring to Oxbridge is private until the GCSEs and then state plus tutoring for A Levels as there is a positive bias towards State School students now at the top universities (apparently).

Edited to add, none of mine went to Oxbridge and were never in the running results wise.

Edited by Dicky Knee on Monday 25th October 17:05

[Challo]

okgo said:

I think this is what powers my positive thoughts towards it. More exposure to a greater number of things and more attention all the while, and of course the ability to get rid of kids if they're a pain.

The problem being as picked up my Warlock is that some state schools are great, some are atrocious. London generally picks up the a huge cross section of society in just a few hundred meters. And you can bet that even a small number of trouble makers will drag the rest down vs being dragged up by the rest.

My state primary had fewer than 100 pupils and we got to piggyback all of the facilities that the very large and expensive private school over the road had. Seemed best of both worlds really. But not so easy to find those places in cities/larger towns. And of course the secondary I went to despite also being quite rural had 1200 people and drew from a large catchment, plenty of aholes came with it.

From what I understand its doesn't have boarding, so the kids go home every evening and due to it being not ridiculous expensive you get a good mix of kids being dropped off in the morning. Some arrive in Range Rovers, and others get dropped off in builders vans.

So far he says its going well, so will be interested to see what he thinks at the end of the year

[okgo]

Pro's as I see them in answer to what am I looking to get from it.

- Better sport facilities
- Fewer problem kids (Live between Brixton and Clapham, so the bad ones are quite bad)
- Longer hours/better school clubs for working parents
- Positive learning environment / more chance of uncovering/nurturing talent

Cons

- Can be quite competitive and quite academic focussed (some of them interview 4 year olds to select if they want them..!)
- Inc nursery its £3-400k from reception > a levels
- Not very diverse, basically just loads of white kids with lawyers and bankers for fathers, mums that lunch. The opposite of what it's really like in London.
- Local state is 10 min walk, closest private option double that, and most are going to be a 10-15 min cycle
- Unless very bright/talented at something, I feel I'm part of a growing problem in the UK (c our politicians, two tier society type situation) and loads of average people just getting into well paying jobs because the face fits etc.

My wife and her two siblings all went to fee paying school, it was just seen as the norm and as such none of them really achieved academically. Equally, I didn't get any qualifications beyond some mediocre GCSE's and have done fine financially speaking (obviously not THE definitive measure, but it's pretty useful) so part of me thinks that you can do fine without a few fancy school/uni crests on your linkedin, but I should think that is confirmation bias a little.

Edited by okgo on Monday 25th October 17:17

Edited by okgo on Monday 25th October 17:19

[Harry H]

My experience from the fee paying schools.

The parents care because they're paying. Which means the kids are generally better behaved
The Rotten Apples can and do get expelled to maintain the schools reputation.
The expectations to achieve are higher as the schools rely on decent results.
The kids get a lot more individual attention.

If you've got a bright naturally motivated child and access to a decent state school I'd save the money and put it towards a deposit on their first house.

If you got a child that could go one way or the other I'd go fee paying.

[derek.j]

I went to state school and have no regrets but what I have noticed about people I’ve met who went to private school is that there not very “ street wise “

[dundarach]

derek.j said:

I went to state school and have no regrets but what I have noticed about people I’ve met who went to private school is that there not very “ street wise “

It's funny really, this was my primary concern for my two going.

I've come to realise in life, it's the other way around.

Being street wise is about getting off the streets, realising they're not cool...

But I understand what you mean!

[Baldchap]

I went to a boys only grammar school. We were the number one state school in the UK when I did my GCSEs and A Levels. We used to laugh at the nearby private school because every single one of the pupils there failed the entry test for our school before paying.

I don't know if the standards of state schools have declined, but I come across quite a lot of youngsters who were privately educated and in almost every case I wonder where the money went.

If you can get into the Eton old boys club, that's undoubtedly a different matter, but for 'normal' private education, it's a big spend to end up working in a bar...

[purplepolarbear]

I'm surprised the following type of private school hasn't emerged (I'm not saying it should emerge but surprised it hasn't)

Fees - about the same as the state would spend (so people on a little above average income could stretch to them)
Selective entrance policy taking the top 25-50%
Strong approach to discipline, expelling persistent or serious trouble makers

The fees wouldn't be enough to reduce class sizes or provide expensive sports facilities, but the selective entrance policy would ensure bright kids aren't brought down by slow ones and lessons aren't disrupted. The parents that choose to pay fees over a nicer car or holiday are also likely to be the ones that care more generally about education and support their kids by doing things to help their education and who won't have issues that disrupt other kids.