Russia Invades Ukraine. Volume 5

[stemll]

BikeBikeBIke said:

The easiest way to depose Zelensky is to vote him out after which he will be a millionaire travelling the world giving Lectures to standing ovations.

May well be true but he will also spend the rest of his life looking over his shoulder for the FSB umbrella and I'd advise against visiting Salisbury cathedral.

[EddieSteadyGo]

martynr said:

... There was one deal already. It was a "grain deal" and where ot is now? Any deals with Rusky government is waste of time. End of.

You might want to revisit the details of the 'grain deal' you refer to.

Why do you think Russia signed it? Because it was a two-way deal. It wasn't just that Ukraine get to export their grain from Odessa without Russian interference. The other part was a relaxation of certain export restrictions against Russian including their agricultural products. Specifically, Russia got a signed agreement from the UN committing them to advocate Western countries on their behalf to achieve this objective.

The deal collapsed because, despite waiting many months, Russia didn't get what they were promised, so they eventually pulled the plug.

That doesn't mean Russia can be trusted to honour each and every deal they sign. But this particular example isn't a good case to show Russian bad-faith.

[Jeanboi]

stemll said:

BikeBikeBIke said:

The easiest way to depose Zelensky is to vote him out after which he will be a millionaire travelling the world giving Lectures to standing ovations.

May well be true but he will also spend the rest of his life looking over his shoulder for the FSB umbrella and I'd advise against visiting Salisbury cathedral.

He's a brave guy, sticking this out.

I hope he gets presidential levels of protection for the rest of his life so that he never has to live in hiding.

[TheJimi]

Yep, Zelensky without serious presidential protection is either a dead man walking or residing in a gilded prison.

[Wacky Racer]

stemll said:

BikeBikeBIke said:

The easiest way to depose Zelensky is to vote him out after which he will be a millionaire travelling the world giving Lectures to standing ovations.

May well be true but he will also spend the rest of his life looking over his shoulder for the FSB umbrella and I'd advise against visiting Salisbury cathedral.

He'll be OK there. it's a lovely town visited by tourists from all over the world.

[Pistom]

What does Orbán expect to achieve with his proposed meeting with Putin?

An EU handout not to meet him?

[AlexIT]

Pistom said:

What does Orbán expect to achieve with his proposed meeting with Putin?

Money

[EddieSteadyGo]

AlexIT said:

Pistom said:

What does Orbán expect to achieve with his proposed meeting with Putin?

Money

More likely he wants to talk to Putin about what he might need to adjust in order to find some kind of compromise. This meeting follows closely from Orban's meeting with Zelensky earlier this week. That won't be a coincidence imo.

[AlexIT]

EddieSteadyGo said:

AlexIT said:

Pistom said:

What does Orbán expect to achieve with his proposed meeting with Putin?

Money

More likely he wants to talk to Putin about what he might need to adjust in order to find some kind of compromise. This meeting follows closely from Orban's meeting with Zelensky earlier this week. That won't be a coincidence imo.

It definitely isn't, I totally agree.

To be honest, even as I despise Orban, I really hope he'll be able to open some doors for talks.

What is going to be said after, is none of his business: I am in the camp that only Ukraine can decide which are the conditions to achieve an end to this war.

[BikeBikeBIke]

AlexIT said:

It definitely isn't, I totally agree.

To be honest, even as I despise Orban, I really hope he'll be able to open some doors for talks.

What is going to be said after, is none of his business: I am in the camp that only Ukraine can decide which are the conditions to achieve an end to this war.

No. Only Russia can decide. Its their war with their objectives. Only they can say when they've done enough to stop.

[MBBlat]

BikeBikeBIke said:

Yeah. The only way to remove Putin from power is to kill him.

The easiest way to depose Zelensky is to vote him out after which he will be a millionaire travelling the world giving Lectures to standing ovations.

Both men are very aware of that.

Isn’t Zelenskyy already a millionaire from his TV work before he became president? Staring in the most popular (Russia language) Ukrainian TV comedy plus being part owner of the production company of said comedy is not exactly the route to poverty.

[BikeBikeBIke]

MBBlat said:

BikeBikeBIke said:

Yeah. The only way to remove Putin from power is to kill him.

The easiest way to depose Zelensky is to vote him out after which he will be a millionaire travelling the world giving Lectures to standing ovations.

Both men are very aware of that.

Isn’t Zelenskyy already a millionaire from his TV work before he became president? Staring in the most popular (Russia language) Ukrainian TV comedy plus being part owner of the production company of said comedy is not exactly the route to poverty.

So what?

[MBBlat]

BikeBikeBIke said:

MBBlat said:

BikeBikeBIke said:

Yeah. The only way to remove Putin from power is to kill him.

The easiest way to depose Zelensky is to vote him out after which he will be a millionaire travelling the world giving Lectures to standing ovations.

Both men are very aware of that.

Isn’t Zelenskyy already a millionaire from his TV work before he became president? Staring in the most popular (Russia language) Ukrainian TV comedy plus being part owner of the production company of said comedy is not exactly the route to poverty.

So what?

Zelenskyy has even less personal worries about losing his position than even most politicians, let alone Putin, as he has an established career to fall back on and most of his fortune and fame predates his political career.

[Cheib]

TheJimi said:

Yep, Zelensky without serious presidential protection is either a dead man walking or residing in a gilded prison.

Win or lose anyone with any kind of "profile" within Ukrainian Government will need protection for the rest of their lives. If Russia wins and occupies Ukraine then the persecution of those who served in the armed forces will be something I do not want to comprehend if I am honest....

[borcy]

https://x.com/TheStudyofWar/status/180903722689597...

Seems to knock any idea of peace talks on the head.

[BikeBikeBIke]

Cheib said:

TheJimi said:

Yep, Zelensky without serious presidential protection is either a dead man walking or residing in a gilded prison.

Win or lose anyone with any kind of "profile" within Ukrainian Government will need protection for the rest of their lives. If Russia wins and occupies Ukraine then the persecution of those who served in the armed forces will be something I do not want to comprehend if I am honest....

Yup. There will be literally millions of refugees, including those guys. Which is one more reason Europe doesn't want Russia to win.

[KAgantua]

borcy said:

https://x.com/TheStudyofWar/status/180903722689597...

Seems to knock any idea of peace talks on the head.

You dont negotiate with them

[Cheib]

KAgantua said:

You dont negotiate with them

Indeed. I think we know they won't keep to whatever terms they sign to....

[moustachebandit]

EddieSteadyGo said:

martynr said:

... There was one deal already. It was a "grain deal" and where ot is now? Any deals with Rusky government is waste of time. End of.

You might want to revisit the details of the 'grain deal' you refer to.

Why do you think Russia signed it? Because it was a two-way deal. It wasn't just that Ukraine get to export their grain from Odessa without Russian interference. The other part was a relaxation of certain export restrictions against Russian including their agricultural products. Specifically, Russia got a signed agreement from the UN committing them to advocate Western countries on their behalf to achieve this objective.

The deal collapsed because, despite waiting many months, Russia didn't get what they were promised, so they eventually pulled the plug.

That doesn't mean Russia can be trusted to honour each and every deal they sign. But this particular example isn't a good case to show Russian bad-faith.

You're of course (and unsurprisingly) completely overlooking the fact that shortly after the deal was signed russia launched drone and missile attacks at the Ukrainian ports handling the export of grain, destroying critical port infrastructure and grain ships. As well as deliberately targeting the wider infrastructure critical for moving grain like grain storage and rail hubs etc. They also attacked and seized civilian vessels bound for Ukrainian ports injuring and killing crew.

This happened in the first few days and weeks of signing the deal. It is LITERALLY a textbook example of the russians operating in bad faith.

The whole thing was a cynical ruse, russia wanted to get certain restrictions relaxed but at the same time had no intention of allowing Ukraine to benefit from the deal, which is why they tried to destroy Ukraine's ability to move grain onto boats and also scare off anyone attempting to make the journey. As a result, the restrictions stayed in place. Seems pretty fair.

russia flounced from "the deal" because they couldn't do anything to limit Ukrainian grain exports because Ukrainian air defence had vastly improved and because the black sea fleet had been chased out of the black sea due to targeted strikes on russian black sea navy bases and the use of Ukrainian drone boats on their ships.

[CharlesdeGaulle]

moustachebandit said:

You're of course (and unsurprisingly) completely overlooking the fact that shortly after the deal was signed russia launched drone and missile attacks at the Ukrainian ports handling the export of grain, destroying critical port infrastructure and grain ships. As well as deliberately targeting the wider infrastructure critical for moving grain like grain storage and rail hubs etc. They also attacked and seized civilian vessels bound for Ukrainian ports injuring and killing crew.

This happened in the first few days and weeks of signing the deal. It is LITERALLY a textbook example of the russians operating in bad faith.

The whole thing was a cynical ruse, russia wanted to get certain restrictions relaxed but at the same time had no intention of allowing Ukraine to benefit from the deal, which is why they tried to destroy Ukraine's ability to move grain onto boats and also scare off anyone attempting to make the journey. As a result, the restrictions stayed in place. Seems pretty fair.

russia flounced from "the deal" because they couldn't do anything to limit Ukrainian grain exports because Ukrainian air defence had vastly improved and because the black sea fleet had been chased out of the black sea due to targeted strikes on russian black sea navy bases and the use of Ukrainian drone boats on their ships.

Good post, and well observed; it's classic ESG and his selective memory and 'achingly fair' balance.