Private schools, times a changing?
Discussion
Cheib said:
I don’t think the VAT rise will directly stop schools like Tonbridge opening their doors to local children but there will now be pressure on these schools to maximise how much they can earn from their facilities. Visiting kids may still get access to classrooms and theatre the swimming pool might be getting rented out.
One of ours is at Sevenoaks - the message from the Headmaster during the recent Founder’s Day speech was very loud and clear. We will continue to be supportive of local state schools through various initiatives and we will do our best to maintain and grow the relationships. However, the assets of the school have to be sweated in the new environment and things will have to change. Sadly it would mean more opportunities for paid for 5-aside football vs hockey practice for the local comprehensive… pheonix478 said:
By the same logic if increasing your tax rate to 70% raised an extra 20k how come you're not costing the public 20k right now. Your logic is inane.
In fact the state could take a kidney from you. So we've all got state subsidised kidneys! I'm so grateful for the kidney that the government have given me!Edited by BikeBikeBIke on Monday 8th July 21:35
C4ME said:
Diderot said:
C4ME said:
pheonix478 said:
Cheib said:
I don’t think the VAT rise will directly stop schools like Tonbridge opening their doors to local children but there will now be pressure on these schools to maximise how much they can earn from their facilities. Visiting kids may still get access to classrooms and theatre the swimming pool might be getting rented out.
I think you're right. Most of the people I've met at these schools are passionate about education and won't be as vindictive as those campaigning against them. I suspect opportunities to use educational facilities will remain but facilities that could otherwise be used by the paying public will dry up. If they're going to be treated like businesses then they are going to need to start acting like them to survive.
king over the education system because of the politics of envy, this time in the 1970s). pheonix478 said:
768 said:
Twisted logic...
I mean that sums the whole thing up. Specifically targeting those people who don't use a government service, to pay extra for that service.Means tested fees of no more than £1000/term would ensure that those of means using the state systems but just opting for cars, homes and holidays instead of fees as is their absolute, god given right in a free society are also contributing equally as the much smaller number of their equally higher income peers who are opting to spend that money on school fees.
It's the default assumption that somehow there is a de facto income divide between the parents who choose to pay for school fees and those who choose not to that is completely illogical. A belief that using the state system somehow means you are poor and must be on benefits and be given more money.
I don't know what planet such thinkers live on but it is quite special. 93% of the nation's children are state educated and somehow all of their parents are skint and on top of that they seemingly want just one tenth of the funds raised to go towards one extra teacher per 1000 pupils which was already happening and budgeted for anyway while all the rest of the money goes nowhere near any children or education.
and yet, in Germany and Spain private school fees are tax deductable. up to 6000 EUR a year in Germany, per child and I have been able to claim approx 2500 EUR in Spain.
Spain, a socialist country partially run by actual communists does more to promote avoidance of the state system to give everyone a better chance. No VAT.
Spain, a socialist country partially run by actual communists does more to promote avoidance of the state system to give everyone a better chance. No VAT.
DonkeyApple said:
pheonix478 said:
768 said:
Twisted logic...
I mean that sums the whole thing up. Specifically targeting those people who don't use a government service, to pay extra for that service.Means tested fees of no more than £1000/term would ensure that those of means using the state systems but just opting for cars, homes and holidays instead of fees as is their absolute, god given right in a free society are also contributing equally as the much smaller number of their equally higher income peers who are opting to spend that money on school fees.
It's the default assumption that somehow there is a de facto income divide between the parents who choose to pay for school fees and those who choose not to that is completely illogical. A belief that using the state system somehow means you are poor and must be on benefits and be given more money.
I don't know what planet such thinkers live on but it is quite special. 93% of the nation's children are state educated and somehow all of their parents are skint and on top of that they seemingly want just one tenth of the funds raised to go towards one extra teacher per 1000 pupils which was already happening and budgeted for anyway while all the rest of the money goes nowhere near any children or education.
I mean it's their prerogative I suppose but I thought that was what people were getting behind it for? That it would help improve "the lot" of those going to state schools.
Cheburator mk2 said:
Cheib said:
I don’t think the VAT rise will directly stop schools like Tonbridge opening their doors to local children but there will now be pressure on these schools to maximise how much they can earn from their facilities. Visiting kids may still get access to classrooms and theatre the swimming pool might be getting rented out.
One of ours is at Sevenoaks - the message from the Headmaster during the recent Founder’s Day speech was very loud and clear. We will continue to be supportive of local state schools through various initiatives and we will do our best to maintain and grow the relationships. However, the assets of the school have to be sweated in the new environment and things will have to change. Sadly it would mean more opportunities for paid for 5-aside football vs hockey practice for the local comprehensive… Louis Balfour said:
Cheburator mk2 said:
Cheib said:
I don’t think the VAT rise will directly stop schools like Tonbridge opening their doors to local children but there will now be pressure on these schools to maximise how much they can earn from their facilities. Visiting kids may still get access to classrooms and theatre the swimming pool might be getting rented out.
One of ours is at Sevenoaks - the message from the Headmaster during the recent Founder’s Day speech was very loud and clear. We will continue to be supportive of local state schools through various initiatives and we will do our best to maintain and grow the relationships. However, the assets of the school have to be sweated in the new environment and things will have to change. Sadly it would mean more opportunities for paid for 5-aside football vs hockey practice for the local comprehensive… If we want to improve state education we need to show education has a value make it clear education and then work from it pays way more than not.
Their has to be carrot and less stick and each person has to have skin in the game. Why would you not want to pay a small fee to educate your children
Gecko1978 said:
Louis Balfour said:
Cheburator mk2 said:
Cheib said:
I don’t think the VAT rise will directly stop schools like Tonbridge opening their doors to local children but there will now be pressure on these schools to maximise how much they can earn from their facilities. Visiting kids may still get access to classrooms and theatre the swimming pool might be getting rented out.
One of ours is at Sevenoaks - the message from the Headmaster during the recent Founder’s Day speech was very loud and clear. We will continue to be supportive of local state schools through various initiatives and we will do our best to maintain and grow the relationships. However, the assets of the school have to be sweated in the new environment and things will have to change. Sadly it would mean more opportunities for paid for 5-aside football vs hockey practice for the local comprehensive… If we want to improve state education we need to show education has a value make it clear education and then work from it pays way more than not.
Their has to be carrot and less stick and each person has to have skin in the game. Why would you not want to pay a small fee to educate your children
Otispunkmeyer said:
Wait...so they want to tax people paying for private schools and then they're not going to use that money to help improve the state schools?
I mean it's their prerogative I suppose but I thought that was what people were getting behind it for? That it would help improve "the lot" of those going to state schools.
£2bn/year raised. £200m earmarked for 6500 new teachers (per year or just one off?) but in reality the industry is already short a greater number than that and already funded to pay for those 6500 so really not a single penny of the tax raised looks like it'll go back into education. I mean it's their prerogative I suppose but I thought that was what people were getting behind it for? That it would help improve "the lot" of those going to state schools.
They have said they will be spending more on rewarding truly terrible parents by doing more feeding of their children for them so it looks like more appeasement and rewarding of the minority who are dragging everyone else's children down along with theirs is the main game in town.
The only question to ask about free school meals is whether tax avoidance specialist and multi millionaire Marcus Rashford will be gobs
ting with his entire tax avoiding industry that poor people and the less affluent should pay for more free school meals to fill the enormous tax hole left by him, his chums, the entire sports and media industry not paying tax? God knows why the Tories didn't shake his hand and agree to match £1 for £1 every bit of money Marcus repatriated and paid tax on along with everyone else in sport. It shows the utter incompetence of the Tory government but also just how thick the average Briton is that they were celebrating a multi millionaire low tax individual's success at getting them to all pay his tab.
As for state school meals, why do those cafeterias appear to cater for the lowest common denominator? I've been in a couple and they appear to mostly serve junk food to the detriment of those who wish their children to eat a proper meal. And the staff didn't appear to be eating at the same tables as the pupils so there was no adult to help them with things like behaviour or basic manners. It struck me as extremely odd how teaching establishments did so little actual teaching. Many of the classes resembled more day care facilities marking time. There was a stark divide between teachers and fun time monitors who were claiming to be teachers. Why was the head teacher not weeding out those failures?
It all struck me as very odd. Such a short day, so many adults doing so little and leaving it all to other adults who are almost certainly not being paid anywhere near enough to be carrying their workload for them. And so many children seemingly running wild and while paying attention in some classes that had a professional teacher running them were shouting in classes which had some kind of adult baby stealing money running them.
How can children learn enough during such a short day and with so many adults who aren't fit to call themselves teachers? It's all rather obvious why some state schools excel and others just collapse to fit the lowest common denominator and fail the millions of children who have no choice but to pass through them and be robbed of their prospects in life because to many adults just don't care about their teacher or parenting responsibilities.
That's why hundreds of thousands of other parents scrimp and save, tap up other family members and make the easy decision to not do the holidays, cars and homes of others. For many the school choice put before their children isn't a school at all but a day car centre for appealing adults who shouldn't be teaching and the disruptive children or appalling parents.
But somehow it's actually the fault of the adults who want the best education, want teachers who teach not slack day care monitors. And the millions of parents just no able to find those savings but desperate for their children to be taught, educated and fed properly see all the resources to do that being consumed by a minority that no one has the love to deal with head on but just wants to throw random money into a hole like a truly awful parent does with unloved children.
And on the subject of charities, why are private schools being singled out? Look at any significant charities in the uk and they are run as businesses, with huge salaries for their CEOs etc, huge amounts of money not going to the actual causes they are promoting, much like the ‘sponsor me to climb Kilimanjaro’ type nonsense.
DonkeyApple said:
£2bn/year raised. £200m earmarked for 6500 new teachers (per year or just one off?) but in reality the industry is already short a greater number than that and already funded to pay for those 6500 so really not a single penny of the tax raised looks like it'll go back into education.
They have said they will be spending more on rewarding truly terrible parents by doing more feeding of their children for them so it looks like more appeasement and rewarding of the minority who are dragging everyone else's children down along with theirs is the main game in town.
The only question to ask about free school meals is whether tax avoidance specialist and multi millionaire Marcus Rashford will be gobsting with his entire tax avoiding industry that poor people and the less affluent should pay for more free school meals to fill the enormous tax hole left by him, his chums, the entire sports and media industry not paying tax? God knows why the Tories didn't shake his hand and agree to match £1 for £1 every bit of money Marcus repatriated and paid tax on along with everyone else in sport.
It shows the utter incompetence of the Tory government but also just how thick the average Briton is that they were celebrating a multi millionaire low tax individual's success at getting them to all pay his tab.
As for state school meals, why do those cafeterias appear to cater for the lowest common denominator? I've been in a couple and they appear to mostly serve junk food to the detriment of those who wish their children to eat a proper meal. And the staff didn't appear to be eating at the same tables as the pupils so there was no adult to help them with things like behaviour or basic manners. It struck me as extremely odd how teaching establishments did so little actual teaching. Many of the classes resembled more day care facilities marking time. There was a stark divide between teachers and fun time monitors who were claiming to be teachers. Why was the head teacher not weeding out those failures?
It all struck me as very odd. Such a short day, so many adults doing so little and leaving it all to other adults who are almost certainly not being paid anywhere near enough to be carrying their workload for them. And so many children seemingly running wild and while paying attention in some classes that had a professional teacher running them were shouting in classes which had some kind of adult baby stealing money running them.
How can children learn enough during such a short day and with so many adults who aren't fit to call themselves teachers? It's all rather obvious why some state schools excel and others just collapse to fit the lowest common denominator and fail the millions of children who have no choice but to pass through them and be robbed of their prospects in life because to many adults just don't care about their teacher or parenting responsibilities.
That's why hundreds of thousands of other parents scrimp and save, tap up other family members and make the easy decision to not do the holidays, cars and homes of others. For many the school choice put before their children isn't a school at all but a day car centre for appealing adults who shouldn't be teaching and the disruptive children or appalling parents.
But somehow it's actually the fault of the adults who want the best education, want teachers who teach not slack day care monitors. And the millions of parents just no able to find those savings but desperate for their children to be taught, educated and fed properly see all the resources to do that being consumed by a minority that no one has the love to deal with head on but just wants to throw random money into a hole like a truly awful parent does with unloved children.
As someone who is, or has been, a governor of four different state schools I would say that what you describe represents the worst of state schools. The issue is that they are such a mixed ability group.They have said they will be spending more on rewarding truly terrible parents by doing more feeding of their children for them so it looks like more appeasement and rewarding of the minority who are dragging everyone else's children down along with theirs is the main game in town.
The only question to ask about free school meals is whether tax avoidance specialist and multi millionaire Marcus Rashford will be gobs
ting with his entire tax avoiding industry that poor people and the less affluent should pay for more free school meals to fill the enormous tax hole left by him, his chums, the entire sports and media industry not paying tax? God knows why the Tories didn't shake his hand and agree to match £1 for £1 every bit of money Marcus repatriated and paid tax on along with everyone else in sport. It shows the utter incompetence of the Tory government but also just how thick the average Briton is that they were celebrating a multi millionaire low tax individual's success at getting them to all pay his tab.
As for state school meals, why do those cafeterias appear to cater for the lowest common denominator? I've been in a couple and they appear to mostly serve junk food to the detriment of those who wish their children to eat a proper meal. And the staff didn't appear to be eating at the same tables as the pupils so there was no adult to help them with things like behaviour or basic manners. It struck me as extremely odd how teaching establishments did so little actual teaching. Many of the classes resembled more day care facilities marking time. There was a stark divide between teachers and fun time monitors who were claiming to be teachers. Why was the head teacher not weeding out those failures?
It all struck me as very odd. Such a short day, so many adults doing so little and leaving it all to other adults who are almost certainly not being paid anywhere near enough to be carrying their workload for them. And so many children seemingly running wild and while paying attention in some classes that had a professional teacher running them were shouting in classes which had some kind of adult baby stealing money running them.
How can children learn enough during such a short day and with so many adults who aren't fit to call themselves teachers? It's all rather obvious why some state schools excel and others just collapse to fit the lowest common denominator and fail the millions of children who have no choice but to pass through them and be robbed of their prospects in life because to many adults just don't care about their teacher or parenting responsibilities.
That's why hundreds of thousands of other parents scrimp and save, tap up other family members and make the easy decision to not do the holidays, cars and homes of others. For many the school choice put before their children isn't a school at all but a day car centre for appealing adults who shouldn't be teaching and the disruptive children or appalling parents.
But somehow it's actually the fault of the adults who want the best education, want teachers who teach not slack day care monitors. And the millions of parents just no able to find those savings but desperate for their children to be taught, educated and fed properly see all the resources to do that being consumed by a minority that no one has the love to deal with head on but just wants to throw random money into a hole like a truly awful parent does with unloved children.
Over the years, I have come to understand that the determinant between an excellent state school and a terrible one (and I have been involved in both) is the quality of the Head. They set the culture and ethos of a school and the standards for staff and pupils alike.
I was asked to take on one school in the Borough where we live that was failing badly. I was very quickly able to discern, along with a number of other governors, that the issue was the head. An over-promoted, workshy simpleton who had no discernable skills except knowing how to game the system. They managed to use "protected characteristics" to remove every Governor and every staff member who opposed them or attempted to call them out. They also used this card to cow the local authority into treating them as untouchable, all the while children were failed educationally and endangered from a lack of safeguarding.
I had to fight the LA tooth and nail for nearly three years to get them removed. It was only when I threatened legal action against the LA after they 'instructed' me to ignore a formal grievance against the head, lodged by all seven members of the school's senior management team - and running to 140 pages of documented evidence of failings - that the LA agreed to me starting performance management. Even then the individual kicked and screamed and involved their union. Weirdly, the individual only saw the writing on the wall and resigned when, after an initial meeting with me, another governor and the LA HR partner, their union rep took them to one side and suggested they resign.
Sorry for the long anecdote but that's what the state sector is up against
Edited by ClaphamGT3 on Tuesday 9th July 08:58
ScotHill said:
I’ve been involved with and been into a number of state schools over the years, Mrs Hill is a teacher with plenty of stories. and I don’t recognise the picture DA paints at all. Agree that the buck stops (or begins, rather) with the head.
Same. Teachers are generally amazing with a few exceptions who typically don't last too long. Early in my career I taught keyskills to the worst of the worst, young offenders and GCSE failures, at a city centre higher education college. None of those kids were really bad one on one, but it is 10x the work and 10x the cost to get them to a basic level than it is to get an able and willing kid to the same level. I had to quit, I was too young and too green and just didn't have the skills or the maturity to deal with it.I have to give all credit to the teachers out there who deal with mixed ability classes, disruptive classrooms, and under resourcing. In a political climate that has been happy to allow ongoing resource restriction on youth services and state education things are bearing up remarkably well, but there is huge room for improvement and the first step has to be ensuring that we are not engineering a system that allows those with the means to wash their hands of responsibility for it.
Private education is a business. State education is a public service. Tax businesses. Use tax to pay for public services. Thanks for seeing sense Labour and I'm glad the rest of the country is in agreement.
M1AGM said:
And on the subject of charities, why are private schools being singled out? Look at any significant charities in the uk and they are run as businesses, with huge salaries for their CEOs etc, huge amounts of money not going to the actual causes they are promoting, much like the ‘sponsor me to climb Kilimanjaro’ type nonsense.
You mean the various politicial think tanks? Hopefully a review of charities will happen at some point and there will be more legislation to ensure that charities really are charities rather than just tax avoiding structures put in place by the last government. Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff